RSDancey replies to Goodman article (Forked Thread: Goodman rebuttal)

[Thanlis]

Unless you are a full-bore computer person, a computer is going to be klunky and slower to use than just doing it the old fashioned way. While a computer savvy person can play D&D on a laptop without slowing the game down, a lesser person can not. The Character Builder on the other hand is easier and faster to use to build characters to almost anyone who is remotely familiar with computers, and it is easier to reference on the whole than a stack of books and Dragon PDFs.

FWIW (and it's not worth that much)...

I've played a lot of LFR in the last six months or so, for various and sundry reasons. In the last month, I've been playing some LFR online using MapTool. This is handy because it means I can draw semi-direct comparisons.

The average LFR module I've played online takes between three and four hours; ditto the average LFR module I've played face to face. I was seriously surprised by this.

After some thought, I think it's because certain things are way faster. Less doing math on hit points. Everyone rolls damage dice along with the to hit dice, because that's how it's programmed. Nobody's sitting around trying to total up 2d12 + 1d10 but reroll the d10 if it's a 1 or a 2, oh wait, plus I get my quarry dice. The numbers go really quick.

I also find online slights roleplay to a degree, which means I'm spending the same amount of time on RP but getting less in. Since I moved recently, I'll be continuing my face to face campaign online. I'm very curious to see how the roleplay changes. (And yeah, if it changes too much, it won't be fun any more.)

All THAT said, I don't think using a laptop at a table would be as quick, for various reasons which I'll go into if people care.

 

[xechnao]

After some thought, I think it's because certain things are way faster. Less doing math on hit points. Everyone rolls damage dice along with the to hit dice, because that's how it's programmed. Nobody's sitting around trying to total up 2d12 + 1d10 but reroll the d10 if it's a 1 or a 2, oh wait, plus I get my quarry dice. The numbers go really quick.

The point I was trying to make above is that Wotc should try to fix this in its rpg games. Mechanics should fly a lot faster on a tabletop game, yet the depth of options and possibilities should be as big, solid and well organized if not even more as what games they are doing now. They need a new system that works well with a new system interface based on this philosophy to be able to do this though.

 

[Thanlis]

The point I was trying to make above is that Wotc should try to fix this in its rpg games. Mechanics should fly a lot faster on a tabletop game, yet the depth of options and possibilities should be as big, solid and well organized if not even more as what games they are doing now.

Can you give an example of a game which has mechanics that'll inherently be faster on a tabletop than they would online? I can think of some ideas but I don't want to misinterpret you.

Or do you mean that mechanics should fly faster on a tabletop game than they do now? I.e., are you just calling for a simpler game?

 

[carmachu]

They don't. Last I checked, the age group that reads the most comics is 18-20something.

What do you expect, though? I got sticker shock when my 6 year old daughter wanted a spiderman comic-she was into superhero's for a while. After seeing the price of almost $4 for a comic, I can see why kids dont buy them.

Growing up comics were $1-$2 tops at the time. I cant see kids having the income to buy comics nowadays.

 

[xechnao]

Can you give an example of a game which has mechanics that'll inherently be faster on a tabletop than they would online? I can think of some ideas but I don't want to misinterpret you.

Roleplaying with your group of friends for one.

Or do you mean that mechanics should fly faster on a tabletop game than they do now? I.e., are you just calling for a simpler game?

This is what I mean too. I am calling for a simpler yet more powerful and equally solid game. Each player should not need a dozen of rolls to play his turn that represents 1/50th of an encounter. Nor should we need a board and minis to limit things even more while still bogging them down. Nor the rules referencing and mastery. Things should be more natural to the tabletop player yet equally solid so that he knows how to operate and does not lose himself in the vagueness of a more loose game (like old school for example).

 

[Thanlis]

Roleplaying with your group of friends for one.

Yes, certainly.

I think you may have misunderstood my post. I'm not arguing that online gaming is superior; I was responding specifically to the assertion that "a computer is going to be klunky and slower to use than just doing it the old fashioned way," because I've had some interesting experiences to the contrary. Said experiences surprised me, too.

I certainly prefer face to face play. At the same time, I'm glad there's a functional method to play D&D online, because I just moved eight hours away from my old gaming group and this'll help me keep in touch.

 

[wingsandsword]

NADA..absolutely nothing and really, if having the 3rd or 4th most successfu movie of all time can't get people to read Batman in higher numbers, they are screwed..

Kids aren't buying comic books for two reasons:

1. Availability. Comic books are generally only sold in specialty comic book stores, not normal sales channels kids know about. When Billy Everykid goes to see Iron Man and The Dark Knight and thinks that Batman and Iron Man are really cool, he goes off to Wal-Mart and Toys R Us, or Target, or Meijer, or other big stores and buys DVD's and action figures and other toys. When he's going through all this, comic books aren't there. To get comic books you have to drive to a comic-book specialty store, one that isn't part of a big chain and doesn't get instant name recognition and probably isn't advertising very much if at all. You'll find some graphic novels at the big bookstores, but it blends in with the crowd there of of the other superhero media like novels, video game guidebooks and other movie tie-ins.

When I was a little boy, in the early 1980's, I remember seeing some comic books in the magazine racks of convenience stores (that's where I bought my G.I. Joe comics as a kid), but that didn't last for long and a few years later I had no real clue where to go to get comic books.

2. Pricing. Comic books have gone way, way up in price. Comic books used to be petty, pocket-change things because they were on pulp paper with four-color graphics and meant to be enjoyed by kids. Now they tend to be "graphic novels" on glossy paper with fancy graphics, and prices that eat up a lot more of a kids allowance proportionally. Emphasis on intricate continuity and long story arcs now also makes it a lot harder to just jump in and read one comic book and get a complete story. The things that made comic books more mature and appealing to the more mature audience has ensured that they will be read mainly by the dedicated adult comic book collector.

As for how this relates to RPGs, it's pretty much the same. Kids nowadays aren't going to just pick up D&D at Wal-Mart or Toys R Us. When I was a pre-teen in the early 90's I picked up my very first D&D set at Toys R Us, the 1991 "Black Box" Basic D&D set, but I was just in my local Toys R Us yesterday shopping for my 4-year-old's birthday and was curious, and there is no version of D&D for sale there that I could find. Ditto for Wal-Mart, Target, Meijer and all the similar big chain stores, and ditto for being available at big bookstores but that's only one relatively small avenue of distribution.

Also, what is the entry cost for D&D now? Aside from simplified beginner sets that really aren't meant to be long-term play solutions, starting to play D&D involves buying (at least) a PHB, MM, and DMG, as well as dice, and probably miniatures (which if you're using official D&D minis turns into the whole collectable issue and prices involved), so you're probably looking at $120 or so (at least, before suppliments), which for a kid isn't exactly cheap. I will admit that the last intro D&D set I looked at was the 3e intro set released in late 2000/early 2001 which was definitely not a long-term game as it had 1st level pre-gens of a few of the 3e iconics with no customization or advancement rules and was very simplified. A product which includes D&D rules for creating characters of at least a few races and classes from 1st through some low level such as 5th and a balanced but small list of monsters and magic items would be a good solid intro that would lead into later products but not be so crippled as to only be somewhat playable by itself.

 

[Mark Plemmons]

A product which includes D&D rules for creating characters of at least a few races and classes from 1st through some low level such as 5th and a balanced but small list of monsters and magic items would be a good solid intro that would lead into later products but not be so crippled as to only be somewhat playable by itself.

You SO make me want to derail this thread by talking about my sig.

 

[ggroy]

When I was a kid, I bought most of my comic books from a corner store or magazine/smoke shops at the nearby malls. These days, corner stores and magazine/smoke shops don't carry any comic books at all. The "big box" bookstores nearby sometimes will have a small section with comic books, but they're not always obvious. Typically they're in the corner that nobody would think to look in.

On the topic of starter D&D sets, the 4E "starter set" is largely crap. The only places I ever saw it were places like big box bookstores and FLGS. Otherwise they're nowhere to be found. In contrast to when I was a kid, the basic D&D red box set could be found at many department stores and many toy stores. (This is the box set with Keep on the Borderlands). Toys R Us and some local bookstores carried the 1E AD&D books and modules, in those days.

 

[Aberzanzorax]

I'll agree with what was said on the prior page.

Time is the issue.

Kids today (ugh...what a horrible way to start a sentence) in the U.S. have a lot less free time than we did when I was a kid (and I had less than my parents). This is particularly true in terms of large chunks of free time.

Kids are overscheduled, by and large. That leads to "entertainment in snippets" rather than in large blocks.



A corollary, and a sad story:
When my son was born, I wasn't really able to play for about a year. I ended up reading D&D RULEBOOKS (adventures or monsters usually) because I could read them for 5 minutes at a time. I just didn't have the chunks of time to read a novel.


So, yeah, I'll agree that no matter the game or system, it's going to be hard to get kids with little time to play. Of course, a system designed to be "uber simple to pick up and play" had better also have a lot of variety and depth (like Mancala, or even checkers....the rules are simple, but the gameplay can be complex).

No level of "addressing the problem" will suffice if new problems (such as a shallow play experience, a lack of meaningful "mastery", no "reward" for long term play, or barriers to some friends--such as cost, equipment, computer compatibility, etc) arise.

Please note, I am not accusing any current system/game of having those above problems. I'm just pointing out the potential pitfalls of a "quick and easy" game.