Rule of 3 3/21

the-golem

Explorer
Wizards can (and to some extent have to, as with their spellbook, they may not have 2 options at every level that fit their school). But for the warpriest, their encounter powers are locked in by their choice of domain.

My overall point is that, a new mage school, while it may encourage someone to play a mage, or to make a new mage, the school specific stuff (i.e. the paragon path, and the benefits specific to that school) are options not avaiable to existing characters. If someone already had a, for example, pyromancer mage or orb of imposition wizard, the necromancer school "option" isn't support, it's a new character possibility. The powers, however, are something they can use.

That was my perspective on support. True, support for a class might mean encouraging people to start playing that class, or make a new character for that class ... but a lot of people buying books at this point are already playing, and likely have a character that isn't going to just die and get rerolled as soon as the book comes out. In that case, supporting those characters means giving them new powers and feats and items, things they don't have to abandon their existing character to use. Sure, there are a lot of stuff in the book for new characters (all the races, new classes and new builds for existing classes that are pretty much the same as a new class, but with existing support already) but outside of the races and vampire (unless there is a multiclass feat in the book) provide stuff for existing characters to use.

I get it now. I had a very broad definition of support, wheras you had a finely honed one.

To use the mage as an example, the "necromancer" fits my term of support, because it offers a new playstyle for that class. However, it doesn't fit yours, because existing mages cannot honestly swap out spells for the new school. To fit your definition, support would include new powers for existing schools.

On a nother thought, I've been playing a warlord recently, and I noticed that a few powers have different "bonus" effects within the same power. For example, Generic Power A has a bonus for both Resourceful and Tactical Warlords.

Why could WotC not do something similar to make the powers work for both old and new builds.

Zomg Lightning Spell, Level 33, If you're a invoker wizard, get this bonus, if you're a staffizard, get this other bonus. Completely vague example, but I think it gets the point out there.
 

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Zaran

Adventurer
the-golem said:
I get it now. I had a very broad definition of support, wheras you had a finely honed one.

To use the mage as an example, the "necromancer" fits my term of support, because it offers a new playstyle for that class. However, it doesn't fit yours, because existing mages cannot honestly swap out spells for the new school. To fit your definition, support would include new powers for existing schools.

On a nother thought, I've been playing a warlord recently, and I noticed that a few powers have different "bonus" effects within the same power. For example, Generic Power A has a bonus for both Resourceful and Tactical Warlords.

Why could WotC not do something similar to make the powers work for both old and new builds.

Zomg Lightning Spell, Level 33, If you're a invoker wizard, get this bonus, if you're a staffizard, get this other bonus. Completely vague example, but I think it gets the point out there.

They won't do this because it's a link to dnd products that are not "evergreen". Someone is supposed to be able to get the essentials books and not need any other books. While those that have core books would need to switch to essentials, an easier line to support, to get all the new goodies. As much as they say the core stuff is supported they are encouraging people to make the switch.
 

Dice4Hire

First Post
Essentials is just like Martial Power or Arcane Power- it introduces new options, including many that existing pcs can take. Heroes of Shadow looks to be the same. Of course it won't have infinite support for the stuff that already has tons of options- it only has so many pages and has to be thematic and focused. But everytime I hear a bunch of people talk about how something doesn't support "Classic" 4e, I roll my eyes.

Well, roll them again, Sam.

The difference between Essentials and the Powers books is that several Essentials classes are just different. A PHBI fighter and a battlerager or Tempest are a lot closer to each other than a PHBI fighter and a Slayer, for example.

Pray tell, what are the rules for my PHBI fighter taking Slayer at-wills. Or encounters?
 

abyssaldeath

First Post
Well, roll them again, Sam.

The difference between Essentials and the Powers books is that several Essentials classes are just different. A PHBI fighter and a battlerager or Tempest are a lot closer to each other than a PHBI fighter and a Slayer, for example.

Pray tell, what are the rules for my PHBI fighter taking Slayer at-wills. Or encounters?
How is that any different that Beastmaster Ranger powers being useless to a Archer Ranger?
 

Dice4Hire

First Post
How is that any different that Beastmaster Ranger powers being useless to a Archer Ranger?

That is one case where there is a problem, granted, but it is one case, not a new design philosophy. With most builds, you can easily use the new powers, you just need training in a skill, or to wield the right weapons.

With Essentials the divide is deeper, and I keep hoping WOTC will put out something to clarify it and make essentials fit more with traditional, but nothing thus far.
 

WalterKovacs

First Post
I get it now. I had a very broad definition of support, wheras you had a finely honed one.

To use the mage as an example, the "necromancer" fits my term of support, because it offers a new playstyle for that class. However, it doesn't fit yours, because existing mages cannot honestly swap out spells for the new school. To fit your definition, support would include new powers for existing schools.

Specifically, the necromancy build options (i.e. the fixed bonuses they get as they level, like the pyromancer's ability to ignore fire resistance) are not something that can be swapped in.

The powers, however, are support for all wizards. They may not directly reference and support older builds, but they could be useful for other wizards. The necromancy school therefore comes with built in support for wizards by providing more options that are available to all.

My argument was in terms of "the old class is not being supported" because (a) it doesn't provide new options, like implement masteries, (b) the powers built for the new school won't be (as) useful for older wizards, and (c) they won't provide direct support for implement masteries.

If the definition of support is needing to have direct support for the old options, it would require either tons of new powers with rider effects, or as you pointed out do exist, powers with numerous different rider effects depending on which build is used; this is especially true if the definition of support is that something that is tied to a build (i.e. it has a school's keyword built it) is only considered support for that build. If the definition of support is entirely new builds, it still doesn't help existing characters.

Why could WotC not do something similar to make the powers work for both old and new builds.

Zomg Lightning Spell, Level 33, If you're a invoker wizard, get this bonus, if you're a staffizard, get this other bonus. Completely vague example, but I think it gets the point out there.

They could do it, but they shouldn't need to. Not only do most of the classes being supported have lots of support already (clerics, wizards, warlocks), but a power doesn't have to be tied directly to a class feature (which only a percentage of characters of that type benefit from) in order to be useful. An, in the case of the schools (and most of the masteries) there are benefits that don't require an explicit mention for it to support the build. A good save ends effect is good for orb of imposition. Orb of deception, and all the schools, are based on keywords to look out for, etc.

I just don't think that players need the power to say on it "Btw, this is good for this particular build" ... as most of the time it should be pretty clear. And, the reason it wouldn't be clear is that there are way too many options already (in which case adding more options isn't a good solution).

Also, referencing many older books is likely not in the plan. That is something better suited for dragon magazine content (since the people getting the magazines have access to all the old content via the compendium and character builder). They don't want a new book to tell someone picking it up "Oh, to make use of this you'll need to have PHB1, and Arcane Power, and the Heroes Books, and PHB2 and PHB3 and the settings books since we reference those races, etc. Essentials was, in part, an effort to lower the barrier for entry (and, by making Essentials evergreen, always available ... so that anywhere selling Heroes of Shadow should have the Essential books, but may not have copies of PHB1 available. If the support relies on you having the original build to make use of it, they wouldn't include that kind of support since they don't want to encourage people to buy the introductory product that is now very outdated, both in terms of rules that have been errata'd, but also class designs that have been abandoned. Why encourage more people to complain about lack of support for conlocks, and strength based clerics, etc?
 

WalterKovacs

First Post
That is one case where there is a problem, granted, but it is one case, not a new design philosophy. With most builds, you can easily use the new powers, you just need training in a skill, or to wield the right weapons.

With Essentials the divide is deeper, and I keep hoping WOTC will put out something to clarify it and make essentials fit more with traditional, but nothing thus far.

They are starting the articles that are basically what would have been in the Class Compendium, with the revised and updated PHB classes (including the warlock) over the next while. They didn't explicitly mention multiclassing and the like, but those were also part of the book that was shelved, so it's possible they will address that at some point.

One thing with the new Essential builds, in some cases (the warpriest specifically), they support the original cleric more. A normal cleric can take any of the new encounter powers and use them. A warpriest can't use any encounter powers introduced for a different domain.
 

Walking Dad

First Post
And... to use Psionic Power, you need PHB3, not any other PHB. And to use Arcane Power fully, you need the PHB, PHB2, and FRPG.

My objection here isn't whether you approve or not of this theoretical shift, it is that this theoretical change has not actually occured. This is the same sort of support we've seen since the beginning - one book can support multiple products. There is nothing to indicate this is any different than the previous splatbooks that operated in the same exact way.
No change and shift is funny. [MENTION=607]Klaus[/MENTION], who wrote for HoS even said they got new submission guidelines based on the essential changes.
After all the different 'Power x' and 'PH x' books, all classes still used the same progression and could use multiclass feats (and later hybrid options).
HotFL and HotFK changed that and the trend continues in HoS. But yeah, the new book is great support as long as the essential variant is close enough to the PH class (but not for Str clerics etc).

And you cut my post to not have to answer to my other points in it.

postnotes_pos.gif
the-golem: Thank you!
For saying the same thing again without disproving me?
postnotes_pos.gif
the Jester: Yes.
Uhhm.. NO!
postnotes_pos.gif
nnms: Nailed it. People are making artificial distinctions between splatbooks to justify their anger
No anger here. Big essentials fan. I just don't like denial.
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abyssaldeath: How dare you bring logic into this argument
I wished he would have...
 

Aegeri

First Post
No change and shift is funny. @Klaus, who wrote for HoS even said they got new submission guidelines based on the essential changes.

So what? They are still essentially (haha, never gets old) the same thing as they always have been. Adding stuff to classes and introducing new builds.

After all the different 'Power x' and 'PH x' books, all classes still used the same progression and could use multiclass feats (and later hybrid options).
I've always hated hybrids and felt they were a terrible addition to the game. Multiclassing still lets you get a good chunk of essential classes stuff, except for the stances of essential classes and some of their features. At the same time, they really aren't things that other classes should be having to begin with because they support their different structure.

But most of the powers made for essentials can still be taken by other classes anyway. You can MC Wizard and take mage at-wills/encounters/dailies. Conveniently the mage/wizard is getting yet more support in this book. How handy!

HotFL and HotFK changed that and the trend continues in HoS. But yeah, the new book is great support as long as the essential variant is close enough to the PH class (but not for Str clerics etc).
Oh poor Strength Clerics, being a part of the best supported classes in the game and probably an entirely new build write up when Wizards redo the cleric in DDI. What about Runepriests? What about Seekers? What about Changelings? What about Artificers? Classes and races that have absolutely nothing. At least strength clerics have all the feats, utility powers and other things produced for essentials clerics.

Whereas all the above? Nothing at all and will have absolutely nothing for the forseeable future as well. I am honestly not sympathetic.
 

Klaus

First Post
No change and shift is funny. [MENTION=607]Klaus[/MENTION], who wrote for HoS even said they got new submission guidelines based on the essential changes.
After all the different 'Power x' and 'PH x' books, all classes still used the same progression and could use multiclass feats (and later hybrid options).
HotFL and HotFK changed that and the trend continues in HoS. But yeah, the new book is great support as long as the essential variant is close enough to the PH class (but not for Str clerics etc).

And you cut my post to not have to answer to my other points in it.


For saying the same thing again without disproving me?

Uhhm.. NO!

No anger here. Big essentials fan. I just don't like denial.

I wished he would have...
Actually, I said the guidelines were more in line with "format" changes (powers have fluff, feats are grouped, etc). I never got a "don't mention at-will attacks!" guideline. But now that we have Slayers, Knights and Thieves, I have to take into account that some classes rely on basic attacks that are no less powerful than at-will powers.
 

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