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Rule-of-Three: 03-27-12

I'd prefer it if a Wizard 10/ Fighter 10 got something like 7th level spells and 3 attacks with however they do multiclassing, assuming a 20th level Fighter gets 4 attacks.

I actually liked how multiclassing was handled back in 2e, as it made various multiclass combos viable unlike how 3e went. 2e's only problem with that was the fact that classes got separate XP advancements, and since HP was based on the average of HD rolls and levelling frequently happened when you had more than one class there was a lot of book-keeping. 4e's Hybrid system is certainly preferable to 3e's multiclassing which either produced really weak like of course the Fighter/Wizard, or really strong combos using 3+ classes plus prestige classes.
 

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Ainamacar

Adventurer
It annoys me how a lot of "new ideas" for 5e already existed in earlier versions.

Symbol of Death always had a HP threshold (60 each in 2e, 150 total in 3e), Power Word Kill always had a HP threshold (60 in 2e, 100 in 3e), Disintegrate in 3e dealt normal damage (only disintegrates if it deals enough to kill the target anyway), and all kinds of effects had HD thresholds or caster level thresholds.

What would be new is if they weren't implemented poorly, or at least were better integrated into the other system assumptions. Thresholds, especially static thresholds, in past editions often meant a spell started out extremely powerful, and then became worthless. Sleep and the Power Word spells (which I dearly love) are paragons of this thought.

I think rethinking thresholds would go a long way to fixing things up. As pointed out earlier, thresholds based on current hp (as a % of full) have inelegant effects on low-hp but 100% healthy creatures. The first thought to fixing that is to go bad to old-style current hp thresholds, but those have problems of their own (especially if you want more than a binary it works/it doesn't outcome).

Why not do both, with a twist? Rather than check current hp vs. a threshold one could apply "phantom" damage, check what % of hit points a creature would have left, and then apply the effect accordingly. The phantom damage isn't actually damage, it is only used to determine hp for the purposes of applying an effect.

For example, consider the medusa's gaze. Say the gaze did 30 points of this phantom damage, and the effects were something like:
<= 0 hp: petrified (no save)
1 - 1/4 hp: petrified (save), slowed on save
1/4 - 1/2 hp: slowed (no save)
1/2+ hp: slowed (save)

For creatures with 30 hp or less it is unavoidable petrification, whether they were injured or not. (It emulates the sort of threshold that is familiar to us.) However, suppose a creature with 100 normal hp, is currently at 50 hp. When the medusa gazes at it the phantom damage means we check the effect as if it had 20 hp instead. In this case that means save or be petrified. If he makes his save he is slowed but still has 50 hp.

Another example might be Power Word Stun. Suppose it does phantom damage dependent on spell level, but the effects with respect to % of hp remain constant. Something like:
Phantom damage is 5/spell level, and the effect is
<=0 hp: Stunned for 1 minute
1-1/4 hp: Stunned for 1 round (no save)
1/4-1/2 hp: Stunned for 1 round (may attempt save at start of next turn)
1/2-3/4 hp: Stunned for 1 round (save), if failed may make second attempt at start of next turn
A 1st level wizard walking around with this spell would be stunning housecats without a save, while a 20th level wizard is doing it to 10th level wizards, but not to the Tarrasque.

For effects that do damage anyway one doesn't need phantom damage to avoid the problems of determining effect by % of health. For example, Polar Ray might do 2d6 damage per spell level, and an effect as follows:
1-1/4 hp: Immobilized for 1 round
1/4-1/2 hp: Slowed for 1 round

Likewise, it is easily to replicate the binary results of a more traditional hp threshold using phantom damage: One just gives an effect for <=0 hp, and no others.

It seems to me this is close to the best of both worlds for thresholds, and very tunable to the specific mechanical and thematical needs of any given effect.

The action economy is the trickiest thing in my opinion. Solos need ways to damage multiple PCs every round. I don't think this is something that should scale by level.

Take the 4e beholder, which gets a free eye ray any time somebody activates within 5. Great for a solo, but can you imagine fighting against five of those?

The action has always been the most important resource in the game, especially since D&D doesn't have much of a death spiral, so I definitely agree that it's tricky.

I think the important thing here is that extra actions can be actual, or just "effective." I mean, in many respects a fireball is just like taking a lot of actions to attack a bunch of people. In that respect, is it so bad if it's a single action?

If this sort of thing did go by level, maybe one could divvy it up smartly. Fighters get extra attacks each round, as per tradition. Perhaps wizards also gain extra "actions" but their high level spells generally require several to cast. So a 20th level wizard might have 3 spell-casting actions, but spells of levels 1-3 might (usually) require 1 action, levels 4-6 2 actions, 7-9 3 actions. A wizard might choose to cast his most powerful spell, or 2-3 lower power spells on a turn. (I'm not in love with this implementation, but it does point in the direction I'm thinking.)

Extending that kind of thinking across the game might allow some cool things that never really worked well in previous editions. For example, the haste spell might actually give one an extra action, and slow could take one away, without some of the terrible brokenness of earlier editions because creatures are expected to have 2-3 attack actions anyway. (At low levels it would still represent a doubling of attack capability, so at the very least the low level version should probably only affect a single creature.)

I grant you, the beholder would have to be done very carefully, so that it has enough actions to be a solo without being onerous to run in larger numbers. The 4e beholder has a very 4e-like method of making sure it gets extra actions, but if we change the action economy it wouldn't make sense to keep it that way. For example, what if the 5e beholder could shoot 5 rays in a round, and could do so at any point during the round. That bounds the total number of actions it can take so it could roughly match action-for-action to a low-level party. (One automatic ray per enemy turn bugs me because it is unbounded, and because it depends on circumstances wholly external to the beholder itself). When the party gains several levels the beholder might still have a few attacks more than usual for a monster of that level, but that isn't so bad if the eye rays can be resolved quickly.
 

LightPhoenix

First Post
The only thing that worries me from this go around is that they really seem to be sold on this "Spells effect threshold" thing.

And I'm leery of it, in practice they only way it could be functional, as described, is if monster Hp is visible in game. And I don't like that. "Petrify works at 35 hp, word of death at 50, stun at 42." Bleh.

I've gotten the impression that the "spell effect threshold" is really a way to bring back some of the cooler "save or die" effects without having them be hideously overpowered. See GX.Sigma's post for 3E examples. For a 4E example, I was thinking along the lines the Executioner Assassin's Death Strike - if the target is almost dead, you simply kill it. The intent seems to be that if a combatant is almost dead, there's no real effect on the fight if that combatant is removed. What it does do is speed up the game without making those effects unfair.

For that reason, I somewhat doubt it will be based on absolute numbers. If this were 4E, I would guess it would key off the bloodied condition. My guess is there will be some kind of HP-status gradation that will be used; maybe something like Healthy/Wounded/Bloodied/Messed Up. To continue your example, Word of Death might do damage, but if you're Messed Up straight up kill you. Petrify might slowly turn you to stone (giving a chance to escape the effect) but if you're Messed Up it might instantly petrify you.
 

GX.Sigma

Adventurer
The only thing that worries me from this go around is that they really seem to be sold on this "Spells effect threshold" thing.

And I'm leery of it, in practice they only way it could be functional, as described, is if monster Hp is visible in game.
I thought it would only be for save-or-die spells directed against the players. I agree, it would be disastrous if players had to guess monsters' current HP.
 

Why? A lot of spells used to work that way. You also had to test different elements. Some even healed monsters. There was a lot of guesswork actually that made the game exciting.
 

WotC_Trevor

First Post
Reposting from another thread as it seems most appropriate here:

I know that the guys are aware of some of the notable issues that cropped up with 3/3.5 multiclassing, and I'm confident that they'll address those as best as they can, and that we'll be able to playtest the crap out of that stuff once that portion of the public playtest gets going. Remember, they're only starting with the 3E idea. I'm certain they want to fix and innovate where they're able.

As a 4E fan, I'm also hopeful that they can take some of the cool things they learned from hybrid multiclassing and apply that to the base of 3E style multiclassing to fix some of the issues that people have touched on here.
 

Andor

First Post
Why? A lot of spells used to work that way. You also had to test different elements. Some even healed monsters. There was a lot of guesswork actually that made the game exciting.

Heh, no one was really shocked when fire didn't hurt fire elementals. There was not a lot of guessing there. :p

And while you did have HP limits on some spells, there was a much smaller range of monster hp pre-3e. An ancient red dragon in AD&D had, what 88hp? Hmm, according to my AD&D DMG that ancient red would have 11 hd dice so 88 at max. Tiamat has 128, Asmodeus has 199.

In 3e the Ancient red has 660 hp and dr 20/+3.
In 4e the Ancient red has 1,390 hp, or better than 10 times what Tiamat had in AD&D.

That's a lot of whittleing to get down to the 60 hp cap of Power Word:Boom.:hmm:

So hopefully 5e will reign those inflated hp numbers back a bit if were going to use 1e style limiting mechanics. And I would also really like to see some sort of skill check mechanic to allow experienced and knoweldgable adventurers to take a reasonable guess at whether or not a spell will affect said beastie.
 

Gryph

First Post
I agree with this to a point. The math has to stay relatively balanced.

For instance, if 5th level spells do 5d6 points of damage and 9th level spells do 20d6 points of damage then being able to cast 5th level spells at 20th level is next to useless. In almost every version of D&D, if you wasted your action of something that was less than half as effective as what the person beside you did on their action, it was a waste of time and effort.

So, I agree, you shouldn't be as good. But having that 10 levels of wizard should provide some sort of synergy that means you aren't horrible. Maybe instead of being able to cast 9th level spells you can use your spell slots to increase the damage from your melee attacks. Which somewhat balances out the damage you lost by losing 10 levels of fighter. Plus, you get the ability to use the utility of your spells as well, making you more versatile but not more powerful.

To me, multiclassing should always give you MORE powers at the expense of less powerful abilities. But once again, not so little power that you can no longer provide value to your party.

It's a very difficult balance to maintain. And, IMHO, nearly impossible to pull off correctly. Which is why the news that 3.5e multiclassing is back in its entirety doesn't fill me with hope.

I see your point. But, if the level scaling is going to flatten out as they've said elsewhere, then the ability to do 5d6 damage to a group of creatures isn't necessarily a sub-par option, especially if your fighter levels let you do that and take a melee attack in the same round.

Too many variables in what we know to be certain that fixed damage by spell level will kill multiclassing effectiveness.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
Heh, no one was really shocked when fire didn't hurt fire elementals. There was not a lot of guessing there. :p

And while you did have HP limits on some spells, there was a much smaller range of monster hp pre-3e. An ancient red dragon in AD&D had, what 88hp? Hmm, according to my AD&D DMG that ancient red would have 11 hd dice so 88 at max. Tiamat has 128, Asmodeus has 199.

In 3e the Ancient red has 660 hp and dr 20/+3.
In 4e the Ancient red has 1,390 hp, or better than 10 times what Tiamat had in AD&D.

That's a lot of whittleing to get down to the 60 hp cap of Power Word:Boom.:hmm:

So hopefully 5e will reign those inflated hp numbers back a bit if were going to use 1e style limiting mechanics. And I would also really like to see some sort of skill check mechanic to allow experienced and knoweldgable adventurers to take a reasonable guess at whether or not a spell will affect said beastie.

Let's be realistic though. You're using pre-3e threshold values compared to post-2e hp values. Admittedly, 3e made the mistake of raising hp without increasing thresholds as well, but with their greater awareness of the mathematical context of the game, I don't think that's a mistake the designers are likely to make again.

If a level-appropriate creature has around 1,400 hp in DDN, then there's no way that the designers would set the threshold for a level-appropriate spell at 60 hp. That's about 4% of it it's hp, which is miniscule to say the least.

A more realistic number for thresholds would probably be between 10% and 50% of total hp of a level-appropriate creature, depending on the potency of the effect inflicted. So, for the above example, 140 hp for the low end and 700 hp for the high. Which doesn't seem all that unreasonable to me given the context (though personally, I doubt we'll be seeing 1,400 hp behemoths in DDN outside of epic levels).
 

Kynn

Adventurer
In 3e the Ancient red has 660 hp and dr 20/+3.
In 4e the Ancient red has 1,390 hp, or better than 10 times what Tiamat had in AD&D.

So hopefully 5e will reign those inflated hp numbers back a bit if were going to use 1e style limiting mechanics.

I dunno. If they're talking about maximum-level rogues doing 20d6 damage per round (not even counting weapon and static bonuses), maybe they aren't going to scale back as much as we think.
 

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