Rule-of-Three: 03-27-12

[keterys]

I'm not enthused about the 3e style multiclassing - I hope they've seen the same aberrations I've seen and are taking steps to curb them.

For example:
2 - 3 class limit
Remove prestige classes
Remove intricate prerequisites

I never again want to see someone have to plan out their character from 1st to 20th so they can nail the exact skill ranks, feats, etc so they can have 3 different prestige classes and 5 different base classes that make them into some horrible blender of doom.

In fact, I'll be happy if no matter what order you take classes, it makes no real difference and there aren't any crazy combinations at all. Down with a ton of planning before playing. Just play, and pick what seems fun.

 

[Bobbum Man]

Q How do you combine the equivalent of swings of a sword with casting of a spell?

A You need to decide how many swings of a sword is equivalent to a level of spell.

This is an interesting idea, but I think that the traditional 9 spell levels are what holds it back.

I would propose balancing these things by tier, so following the 3rd edition model:

Levels 1-5: Schmuck dirt farmer with a pointy stick tier
Levels 6-10: Young Conan tier
Levels 11-15: Kung Fu Arhtur Pendragon tier
Levels 16-20: Punch Yog Sothothin the face and then make out with his girlfriend while he cries bitter tears tier

Each of these could have it's own associated spell level: (1-5 Apprentice; 6-10 Magus; 11-15 High Magus; 16-20 Arch Magus)

The beginning of each of these tiers is also when the Fighter gets her additional attacks:

1-5: 1 attack/round
6-10: 2 attacks/round
11-15: 3 attacks/round
16-20: 4 attacks/round

We can then balance magic against weapon attacks:

Apprentice Spells=1 attack
Magus Spells = 2 attacks
High Magus Spells = 3 attacks
Archmages Spells = 4 attacks

So a level 10 Fighter/10 Mage can make up to two attacks and cast a magus level spell in a round.

Of course this kind of breaks down when you notice that it takes an Arch Magus level Wizard his entire standard action to cast a simple apprentice level spell, whereas a simple dabbler can cast it in half the time.

 

[keterys]

It could work if you only have a set number of slots, rather than a ginormous pyramid, so he always has his best stuff prepared.

 

[FireLance]

Don't like this. A 10/10 fighter/wizard shouldn't be able to cast 9th-level spells at all. Should cast spells as a 10th-level wizard (max spell level 5). Want to cast 9th-level spells as a 20th-level wizard? Stay in the wizard class, don't multiclass into something else. That's the price you pay. (Not saying anything is wrong with multiclassing, but it's a choice. You choose to branch out, you aren't as good in your primary class anymore.)

I think we both agree that a 10/10 fighter wizard should have half the wizard abilities of a 20th-level wizard. I prefer to halve the number of spells (on the basis that high-level spells are more likely to be useful when dealing with high-level challenges), but halving the level of the spells (but not the number of spells) could work as well (and may actually be what WotC has in mind). Just so long as you don't do both and end up with a 10/10 fighter/wizard that has only one-quarter the wizard abilities of a 20th-level wizard.

 

[pauljathome]

4e's only contribution was the non-Euclidean diagonals thing.

I know that I'm in the minority but I absolutely loathe that "contribution"

It means that I can't look at the battlemat and just see who is closest.

It makes it a lot harder for a fighter to interpose himself between the monsters and the squishies since the bad guys can just go around since going around is the same damn distance.

And it makes circles suddenly appear to be squares.

 

[Janaxstrus]

I'm not enthused about the 3e style multiclassing - I hope they've seen the same aberrations I've seen and are taking steps to curb them.

For example:
2 - 3 class limit
Remove prestige classes
Remove intricate prerequisites

I never again want to see someone have to plan out their character from 1st to 20th so they can nail the exact skill ranks, feats, etc so they can have 3 different prestige classes and 5 different base classes that make them into some horrible blender of doom.

In fact, I'll be happy if no matter what order you take classes, it makes no real difference and there aren't any crazy combinations at all. Down with a ton of planning before playing. Just play, and pick what seems fun.

I'm perfectly fine with the planning of feats out to 20, but I do agree that PRESTIGE classes should be limited. I think if they correct the issues with the base classes front loading and making "dips" enticing, that you won't see the 4 base class multiclass characters as much UNLESS, it fits a theme they are going for.

Currently, we limit prestige classes to 1, with DM approval to take additional ones (obviously if they have a good RP reason, no problem, but they are PRESTIGE classes and are treated as such)

So, bottom line, love the idea of 3e style multiclassing, just please fix the "dip" issue.

 

[keterys]

Yep - it is tricky, cause you want people to start a class and feel like they're actually that class... hence front-loading.

But hopefully they'll figure out some way to make it work so you don't take 1-2 levels of several classes for the shinies.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I think we both agree that a 10/10 fighter wizard should have half the wizard abilities of a 20th-level wizard. I prefer to halve the number of spells (on the basis that high-level spells are more likely to be useful when dealing with high-level challenges), but halving the level of the spells (but not the number of spells) could work as well (and may actually be what WotC has in mind). Just so long as you don't do both and end up with a 10/10 fighter/wizard that has only one-quarter the wizard abilities of a 20th-level wizard.

Had a long reply here, that the system ate. Short version:

Basic/AD&D worked on power issues. The fi/mu was neither at half, not at max (barring some wonky stuff at early levels and racial caps).

To replicate in a 3E/4E multiclassing mix, treat most power as a level thing, but most breadth as a class thing. Then put in "class power options" to compensate. (The equivalent picks for breadth already exists as feats, skills, etc.)

For example, a single-class wizard at 20th level gets the full breadth (i.e. number of spells, options) of a 20th level wizard. By default he get maybe about 12th level power of a wizard. However, he also has around 8 "wizard power option" picks over those 20th levels that bumps his wizard power to 20th level. For convenience, you have a column or two on the class charts with these baked in, but also separately for multiclassing. Every class has something like this.

Then a fighter/wizard 10/10 is a 20th level character that gets the breadth of a 10th level fighter and a 10th level wizard. Those options have the power of about a 12th level wizard and fighter (based strictly on level). He also has about 4 class power option picks each for fighter and wizard. With these, he can get that power up to around 16th level wizard and fighter.

The numbers might need tweaking a bit, but the idea is consistent with what has worked in the past, but a smoother progression (no goofy stuff at 1st level) and also able to support the concept of power being in the slot, not in low-level spells scaling by "caster level" or the like.

 

[Piratecat]

A quick thank you for tailing off the argument and getting the thread back on track without moderator intervention. It's appreciated.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Yep - it is tricky, cause you want people to start a class and feel like they're actually that class... hence front-loading.

But hopefully they'll figure out some way to make it work so you don't take 1-2 levels of several classes for the shinies.

3E multiclassing worries me also. For my group's likes and dislikes it became the core issue that made me want to quit playing D&D.

I wonder if they could work class levels as (very very roughly):
Level 1: choose 4 class abilities
Level 2-whatever: choose 1 class ability

Make class abilities have level requirements. When you start as a Fighter you get everything a 1st-level fighter does. If at 2nd level you choose to multiclass into Wizard, you get what a 2nd-level Wizard would get. Thus, your 2nd-level PC would have 4 class abilities available to a first level fighter and one class ability available to a second level Wizard. The only way to load up on four class abilities in one level is to start your career in that class.