Rule of Three 3/6

[Andor]

Because verosimilitude is not the same thing as realism.

Truth. Verisimilitude doesn't mean it has to be reality exactly as we know it, merely that it has to be one that we can believe in. The flip side of that is that it does have to be understandable enough for that buy-in.

verisimilitude

the semblance of reality in dramatic or nondramatic fiction. The concept implies that either the action represented must be acceptable or convincing according to the audience's own experience or knowledge or, as in the presentation of science fiction or tales of the supernatural, the audience must be enticed into willingly suspending disbelief and accepting improbable actions as true within the framework of the narrative.

As long as you have laid the groundwork in the fluff a fighters self-healing could be herb lore, prana meditations, bandages, hedge magic, accupuncture, or gifts from Kord to the valiant. It could be the blessing of the ancestors, magical fairie mushrooms, satyrs wine or strength gained by consuming the hearts of your defeated foes.

Yes, little of that would have been used by a 12th century knight errant. The Knight never dodged a fireball or faced down a pack of ghouls either, so who cares? Likewise our PCs probably do not belive a lack of hygiene is a proper attribute of the devout, showing as it does a focus on the soul through mortification of the flesh, but a 12th century knight errant would have.

Alternatively fighter damage control could be a class feature that gets extra mileage from armour and/or shields. It could be a second wind, adrenaline surge, or heroic stamina. It could be an active parry or a meta-game hero point usage to turn aside a deadly blow.

What it cannot be (for many of us) is an undefined "Fighters heal, standard action to regain half your HP." Although it would be accepatable, to me, if that line of mechanics was accompanied by the above listing of possible fluff and some guidance on how the GM can select appropriate terms to create the campaign world he envisions.

 

[Hassassin]

I can see the issue with the PC being good-as-new from being shouted at, but being able to get up and act again makes plenty of sense to me. Someone hearing the inspiring call of their allies as they flit in and out of consciousness on the ground, and being rallied by it, is highly evocative.

This is again where the mechanics go completely against what they actually say. When you are dying you are unconscious according to the rules. If the designers wanted you to be drifting in and out of consciousness the rules should say that or e.g. that you are incapacitated.

If the designers want to redefine what happens in a certain situation they must change the flavor to match. Then they must make sure the flavor and mechanics are consistent. For example, if you have other ways of making someone unconscious (like non-lethal damage or spells) those must interact to prevent consciousness-requiring abilities from working.

 

[triqui]

Truth. Verisimilitude doesn't mean it has to be reality exactly as we know it, merely that it has to be one that we can believe in. The flip side of that is that it does have to be understandable enough for that buy-in.



As long as you have laid the groundwork in the fluff a fighters self-healing could be herb lore, prana meditations, bandages, hedge magic, accupuncture, or gifts from Kord to the valiant. It could be the blessing of the ancestors, magical fairie mushrooms, satyrs wine or strength gained by consuming the hearts of your defeated foes.

Yes, little of that would have been used by a 12th century knight errant. The Knight never dodged a fireball or faced down a pack of ghouls either, so who cares? Likewise our PCs probably do not belive a lack of hygiene is a proper attribute of the devout, showing as it does a focus on the soul through mortification of the flesh, but a 12th century knight errant would have.

Alternatively fighter damage control could be a class feature that gets extra mileage from armour and/or shields. It could be a second wind, adrenaline surge, or heroic stamina. It could be an active parry or a meta-game hero point usage to turn aside a deadly blow.

What it cannot be (for many of us) is an undefined "Fighters heal, standard action to regain half your HP." Although it would be accepatable, to me, if that line of mechanics was accompanied by the above listing of possible fluff and some guidance on how the GM can select appropriate terms to create the campaign world he envisions.

Verosimilitude depends on what you are trying to simulate. If you are simulating a Saint Seya RPG, the ability to heal can be "expanding your aura" after being beated and drop to 0 hp (once and again every combat). If you are simulating Bruce Willis in Die Hard, the ability to heal might be just a Second Wind. After each beatdown he gets, he goes to a room, take a short rest, and keep fighting able to take another full beatdown. If you try to simulate Beowulf stories, or Odissey, or Solomon Kane, or The Nibelung Ring, the healing would mean different things. In a real world boxing combat, second wind might be just lying against the ropes for a few seconds to recover fatigue, breath a bit, and get your (abstract) hp back, for example.

So basically, yes, if what you are trying to simulate is real XIII century knights, and/or Tolkien-like fantasy, "second wind" might be on the border of what is verosimile. What is not, though, is HP as a whole. Or Saving Throws.

I'd never understand why if my 3ed 15 lvl fighter can put his plate armor on, and proceed to climb the Empire State building while armored, once in the roof drinks a vial with cyanide and another one with arsenicum, then jumps and beat the longjump record (while on full plate) and falls from the building and take 20d6 without dying it's ok. But if the same fighter does that in 4e, and he uses a second wind after that to heal part of that damage, it suddenly breaks the suspension of disbelief.

Why is so? Why you dont have a problem with a lvl 15 fighter needing, on average, 30 crossbow bolts to die, or being able to drink poison, or falling from the empire state without dying, but you find yourself unable to accept a mechanic that mimic what happens in Boxing in real life?

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Why is so? Why you dont have a problem with a lvl 15 fighter needing, on average, 30 crossbow bolts to die, or being able to drink poison, or falling from the empire state without dying, but you find yourself unable to accept a mechanic that mimic what happens in Boxing in real life?

Selective and highly subjective suspension of disbelief--not least of all because mechanics that are long used and familiar generally grant more such suspension. Familiarity doesn't always breed contempt. Sometimes it breeds comfort.

Thus, of all the people who dislike something like second wind, some of them don't like it because it interferes with previous accommodations. Some of them don't like it because they tried it, got familiar, and found out they really don't like it. However, some of them don't like it because they decided they didn't like it, and haven't bothered to try it long enough to find out if they can accept it like they did all that other stuff you listed. They've forgotten how they had to rationalize all that. And then some people don't like it because it is in 4E.

Nothing wrong with any of those. We are allowed to be as idiosyncratic or obtuse or whatever we want with hobbies. The only real flaw that constantly emerges is the reduction of "interferes with my highly subjective sense of verisimilitude" to "reduces verisimilitude"--as if by implication there were some kind of objective verisimilitude criteria being applied--though, conveniently, never outright stated.

 

[Mattachine]

Nothing wrong with any of those. We are allowed to be as idiosyncratic or obtuse or whatever we want with hobbies. The only real flaw that constantly emerges is the reduction of "interferes with my highly subjective sense of verisimilitude" to "reduces verisimilitude"--as if by implication there were some kind of objective verisimilitude criteria being applied--though, conveniently, never outright stated.

Sing it, brother!

P.S. In case you hadn't noticed, this is Cthon, in one of his many blasphemous, noisome aliases.

 

[KesselZero]

What is the reason for an experianced optimizer player to make a super duper complex character if he will not be a bit more effective that the simple built one?

What I'm hoping for from my complexity options is the ability to build exactly the character I envision without sacrificing effectiveness. I'd love to see a system where there's a Basic Human Fighter with a sword and shield that I could hand to a new player, but when I play I can create an Archer Fighter or a Dextrous Elf Fighter or something like that, and have him be as good as the Basic Human Fighter. The benefit I hope to gain from complexity is to have options, options, options, so races and classes aren't pigeonholed into one specialty.

 

[Ratskinner]

A general note.
Am i the only one who thinks that more complexity will eventually lead to more power?
What is the reason for an experianced optimizer player to make a super duper complex character if he will not be a bit more effective that the simple built one?
An answer could be "the gaming experiance" of the complex character and another would be "the possibilty of a more elaborate role playing" from the complex character... but are these enough?

Just my random thoughts...

I think it depends on what you are optimizing for. As you allude, it may be that combat efficiency isn't the only direction. Also, I think it would be nice if what the rest of the party did affected what "optimum" meant. That is path C for Fighter might normally not be great....but if your Cleric is taking path C', you really want to take path C. Additionally, campaign realities should matter. If orcs are to be a bigger threat over more levels....perhaps a longer-running orc invasion campaign would afford better value in some choices than a more varied campaign.

Basically, I think it all works out if "choice" doesn't mean "+1 to X, if Y is true" vs "+2 to A, but only when B." We've done that, and it leads to the horror which is modern requirement to optimize your character.

 

[triqui]

Selective and highly subjective suspension of disbelief--not least of all because mechanics that are long used and familiar generally grant more such suspension. Familiarity doesn't always breed contempt. Sometimes it breeds comfort.

Thus, of all the people who dislike something like second wind, some of them don't like it because it interferes with previous accommodations. Some of them don't like it because they tried it, got familiar, and found out they really don't like it. However, some of them don't like it because they decided they didn't like it, and haven't bothered to try it long enough to find out if they can accept it like they did all that other stuff you listed. They've forgotten how they had to rationalize all that. And then some people don't like it because it is in 4E.

Nothing wrong with any of those. We are allowed to be as idiosyncratic or obtuse or whatever we want with hobbies. The only real flaw that constantly emerges is the reduction of "interferes with my highly subjective sense of verisimilitude" to "reduces verisimilitude"--as if by implication there were some kind of objective verisimilitude criteria being applied--though, conveniently, never outright stated.

Oh, I agree people has right to dislike whatever rule they want. It's just that it sound stupid to do so because of verosimilitude when said verosimilitude is trying to simulate XII Century real Middle Age, and then proceed to ignore the other 5 zillion things in the game that completelly shatter said verosimilitude.

I could understand people who do not like second wind for technical reasons (such as too easy healing, wanting to restrict healing to healer classes, whatever). It's just that "verosimilitude" sounds absurd when your character can drink cyanide and just burp, once he reachs level 10 or so. When your level 10 fighter can play russian roulette against a commoner and win even if he get shot. When he could bet against that said commoner that he is unable to decapitate him with a long sword, and then let him to try a coup de grace and just survive both damage and the saving throw.

So yeah, your character can recover fatigue, combat stress and pain with taking a deep breath and a moment of respite. Wow. My suspension of disbilief has just died.

 

[Dausuul]

*clears throat*

There is no "O" in "verisimilitude."

Thank you.

 

[triqui]

*clears throat*

There is no "O" in "verisimilitude."

Thank you.

English is my second language, and in my mother language the word is quite similar and does have an o. Hence the confusion. "Verosimilitud" in Spanish.