Rule Of Three - How did I miss this

[Alaxk Knight of Galt]

Rule of Three: 11/07/2011

Wow, just wow. This is an incredibly insightful look into the 4E Design Mindset. There's a gold mine of topics here; Player v Character, MMO influence on 4E, Skill Checks, Combat Roles, etc.

But Baker's comments on the Power System are interesting.

We have too many powers that are too similar. Listing powers under specific classes might have helped organize the Player's Handbook for the specific task of character creation, but it launched us on a design and development path where we created many similar powers whose only substantive difference is the class those powers appear under. If I told you "I'm thinking of a 2[W] power that dazes for 1 round—which class does that power belong to?" you couldn't begin to guess. Almost anybody might have that power.


...I have belatedly come to realize that overlapping spell lists are a good thing, because they give spells like hold person and dispel magic unique identities in the game. When I play 4e, I don't recognize most of the powers that my fellow players are using, and that's a shame. In retrospect, I wish we'd just created a Powers Appendix of iconic, diverse effects (including martial powers, of course), and granted each class access to different subsets of those powers. The game would be better with a smaller number of iconic and memorable powers even if classes overlapped a bit more.

This is an amazing answer. Let's look at it

1. There are too many powers that are too similar
2. Powers were originally broken up by class for making it easier to roll new characters
3. WotC clung to this design (class = power selection) instead of breaking away from it
4. It can be hard to tell what powers belong to what class (the example provided is weak, some classes do have iconic powers that fit them. Fighter's Come and Get It for example.)
5. Baker believes that the overabundance of powers has made the game less recognizable.
6. Baker is in favor of fewer, but more iconic powers that are not limited by class. Heck, he says the game would be Better if this was the case (obviously just his opinion, but still, what a statement).

 

[DEFCON 1]

Ironically, it was WotC's success that has brought about this result. It's only now... three years in... with all the Power splatbooks released and years of Dragon article crunch (because that is much of what players guzzled up with a straw during the beginning), that has caused this situation where there's just so many powers that its impossible to remember anything as being 'iconic' for 4E. Had we only had just the powers in the Player's Handbooks for the various classes (which basically amounts to around 4 powers per level), and never saw 'expansions' of those power lists... I think more of these powers would have a higher status (even if they never 'doubled up' on particular powers like Rich is talking about.)

The one thing I will say about that (as they continue their design and development work) is that these new ideas of having powers that go cross-class, as well as powers which have minor/major versions of them... I think will help create this iconicism because there will be just less names to remember. So that when the inevitable Dragon article gets written in the future... rather than including 9 new powers, it only includes 3 powers which have three versions of it at each individual tier. And one of those powers might be already from another class's list.

 

[wedgeski]

that has caused this situation where there's just so many powers that its impossible to remember anything as being 'iconic' for 4E.

I'm not sure this is entirely true, "Thunderwave" being the first example that springs to mind.

Having said that, the various classes I've played and/or DM'd mostly seem very flavourful and unique, and they're all using the same basket of potential effects in one form or another (damage, forced movement, buff, debuff). Is it the class features, the powers, or a mixture of the two that has achieved this? I don't know the answer, but there is nothing generic about the majority of classes in 4E and I would hate to see a future design decision threaten that.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I'm not sure this is entirely true, "Thunderwave" being the first example that springs to mind.

You're right of course, in that it's not entirely true. There certainly are powers that have become 'known' per se. But that proportion of those powers compared to the total number that exist in the game is very, very small. And I would imagine that practically none of those 'known' powers are like levels 11 or above. They're all low-level ones because they've been used much more often by more people (and many powers which have become 'known' have done so not because they're good, but because they've been decried in a negative way-- like Come And Get It for example.)

Having said that, the various classes I've played and/or DM'd mostly seem very flavourful and unique, and they're all using the same basket of potential effects in one form or another (damage, forced movement, buff, debuff). Is it the class features, the powers, or a mixture of the two that has achieved this? I don't know the answer, but there is nothing generic about the majority of classes in 4E and I would hate to see a future design decision threaten that.

I certainly don't think massive cross-class powers would be a good thing for originality and distinction necessarily... but in many cases having the same power in two or more class lists makes sense, especially true within a particular power source. Is there any reason why several of the Beastmaster Ranger's and Sentinel Druid's potential powers for their respective animal companions not be the same? Or why all the defender classes don't have a couple of the same 'defender' powers to make them more powerful defenders? Do we need Turn Undead, Abjure Undead, Rebuke Undead, and Smite Undead?

With the amount of powers in the game... doubling up on a few here and there is not going to destroy the uniqueness of the classes that much in my opinion. Overall, all it will really do is cut down on some of the downright silly power names that get invented because they've run out of cool ideas.

 

[MichaelSomething]

You could argue that it's simply harder for new things to gain traction? How many spells from the Spell Compendium are iconic?

 

[Otterscrubber]

I have to agree. I was a big proponent of 4e when it came out. But with the deluge of powers, there was such a blend of abilities that it seemed overwhelming and took away any distinctiveness of a particular class. Rather, there seemed to be several powers, when used together, that allow a class to stand out. I think of bard healing for some reason. They really shine after popping a few then they can really heal. But for the most part, meh. Way, way too many powers with too little variation.

Also, I feel they went overboard on variations within classes. I used to love to play rangers, now there are like 5 types of rangers, all so specific in their scope that I don't feel I am playing a ranger if I play any of them. Rather than make 5 variations that do different things (dps range, wield two weapons, throw a weapon, etc...) why not make one that does all of these things in a way no other class can and just build on that. But now I can't help feel what I'm leaving behind when I pick a particular path to build on the character rather then enjoying what they can do.

Also, also, I despise that as you level you "swap out" certain dailies and encounter powers. That has always seemed ridiculous that you "forget" how to use those abilities as you learn a new one. I understand there may have been some balance reason to it, but it is hard to get over. I still have not been able to...dont' take away my hard earned toys. Just don't.

 

[Otterscrubber]

Let me also add that it is very hard to make a character without the character generator now, mainly due to the ridiculous amount of powers and feats in this game, not to mention magic items. What started out as a handy tool has become a necessity if you want to make a well made character. If you want to do it the old pen and paper way, then you need to have a wall of game books in front of you, understand them all intimately and also be aware of what supersedes what when there is a conflict. Of which there are many, or at least new feats/powers/magic items that are so similar, yet superior to previous ones, that the old ones are essentially useless. Don't pick any of these or you won't be maxed out. That's a pain. I never felt in previous editions of the game that I didn't have a grasp of all the material. Now I do and this saddens me.

 

[MerricB]

I counter "Wall of Books" syndrome by going to the Character Optimization boards. They've done the research for me!

Cheers!

 

[MichaelSomething]

Also, also, I despise that as you level you "swap out" certain dailies and encounter powers. That has always seemed ridiculous that you "forget" how to use those abilities as you learn a new one. I understand there may have been some balance reason to it, but it is hard to get over. I still have not been able to...dont' take away my hard earned toys. Just don't.

It could represent your character growing and changing. Running around with a towel wrapped on pretending to be Superman is great when you're a kid but not so hot when you're an adult.

Sadly, you should have spoke up (more) when people were complaining about managing twenty to thirty different spells in high level 3.5.

 

[am181d]

Also, also, I despise that as you level you "swap out" certain dailies and encounter powers. That has always seemed ridiculous that you "forget" how to use those abilities as you learn a new one. I understand there may have been some balance reason to it, but it is hard to get over. I still have not been able to...dont' take away my hard earned toys. Just don't.

I haven't played A LOT of 4e, but my experience was that you could generally replace a lower level power with a higher level power with a substantially similar special effect. "I can't cast FIRE BOMB anymore, but I can cast FIRE MEGABOOM, which is even better."