Rules clarification - bonus stacking

[Hellefire]

Well, I'm understanding more of the 3.x thing every day, but I am a bit confused about stacking issues.

Going off PHB 3.5 page 136 and DMG 3.5 page 21 -

It states in the DMG that only dodge bonuses and certain circumstance bonuses stack, and the same is implied in the PHB (by wording in the dodge bonus section).

However, enhancement bonus 'represents an increase in the strength or effectiveness of a character's armor or weapon' (DMG, pg 21).
Which makes it sort of a meta-bonus, since there are bonuses for each of shield and armor. So we have an enhancement bonus to an armor bonus. And an enhancement bonus to a shield bonus.
So, while (most) bonuses don't stack, should I take that to mean that you can have one enhancement meta-bonus for each thing it can affect? I mean, I assume you can stack +2 plate mail with a +3 shield, but that's just because it has always been the way it's worked. Those are both enhancement bonuses, but they stack because they are affecting different, um, things?

Are there any other 'meta' bonuses like that? Which don't affect a character, but different bits of his gear or what not, and which can effectively stack with one bonus on each item?

Which brings me to the reason I was looking up the rule in the first place. What about deflection bonuses? It doesn't say they stack, so should I assume they don't? As in, rings of protection provide a deflection bonus to AC. So a character could use 2 rings, but not two rings of protection, because they have the same bonus type on the same thing, and thus only the highest would function?


Thanks!
Aaron

 

[Joshua Randall]

If you think of the enhancement bonuses as going with the thing they enhance, then it might make more sense. For example,

+2 full plate has a [+2 enhancement bonus to armor] and a [+8 armor bonus]
+3 heavy steel shield has a [+3 enhancement bonus to shield] and a [+2 shield bonus]

All of these stack to give you AC 25. You would typically see this broken out as

AC 25 = 10 + 10 armor + 5 shield

which rolls the [armor and its enhancement bonus] and [shield and its enhancement bonus] together for simplicity.

 

[Umbran]

This is a straight, old-fashioned rules question. Moving to the Rules Forum.

 

[mikebr99]

Here's a handy little read on stacking.

Mike

 

[Hellefire]

Thanks for the link! That did clear a few things up. For example, rings of protection no longer stack.

I also noticed this at the end:

"When you have an inherent bonus to an ability score, you're limited to a +5 inherent bonus to any single ability score. Since an inherent bonus has a name, it won't stack with another inherent bonus (so be careful with those manuals and tomes)."

So...you can only get one inherent bonus to each ability ever (from magic books, wish spells, etc). Wish gives +1, but if repeatedly cast in immediate succession can be stacked up to +5 on a single ability. Just make sure your wife doesnt interrupt you with a phone call in the middle, since you can never again add an inherent bonus to that stat. It also kind of makes me wonder why people would make anything less than +5 books. I think I am going to devalue the lower bonus ones a bit, since they are one time only (as they used to be). Or add to the value of the +5 one. I could give a +1 book as a 'magnificent present' to that annoying uncle I don't really like.

Anyway, back to the original concern - from what I read, rings of protection do NOT stack now. I'm going to go with that unless anyone has any other ideas/links/etc that would prove otherwise. Kind of a sad day for my naked spellcasters though .

Aaron

 

[darthkilmor]

So...you can only get one inherent bonus to each ability ever (from magic books, wish spells, etc). Wish gives +1, but if repeatedly cast in immediate succession can be stacked up to +5 on a single ability. Just make sure your wife doesnt interrupt you with a phone call in the middle, since you can never again add an inherent bonus to that stat. It also kind of makes me wonder why people would make anything less than +5 books. I think I am going to devalue the lower bonus ones a bit, since they are one time only (as they used to be). Or add to the value of the +5 one. I could give a +1 book as a 'magnificent present' to that annoying uncle I don't really like.

I don't believe thats quite how it works(and if I'm wrong someone will correct me). If you read a +2 dex manual and then later find a +4 dex manual, you can read it and you'll now have two different inherit bonus's that overlap(so for some reason?? if you lost the +4 bonus you'd still have the +2). But yeah, you wonder whats the point of anything other than a +5 bonus book.

Thats why iirc alot of ppl house rule that manuals/tomes stack, ie, you find a +2 tome and a +3 tome, you now have +5 bonus.

 

[Hellefire]

more questions

OK, so making the books require use of wish or miracle. If its a +5 book does it require the 5 castings in immediate succession? The logistics of that get a little complicated.

It says in the DMG 3.5 that you can create a magic item requiring a spell through having access to the spell through another caster or item (page 282, Creating Magic Items, second paragraph). It also states that it takes 1 day per 1,000gp of base cost, and that the creator (or other magic source) needs to expend the required spell slot/s for each day of item creation. OK, so that's 137,500gp base price for a +5 book = 138 days to create. Each of those days requires the use of either 1 or 5 9th level spell slots. Considering a +1 book requires the XP from casting a single wish spell (plus losing a 9th level slot each day of creation until it is done), and a +5 book is simply the same cost x5...does that mean that since the time is already extended 5-fold that only 1 spell slot per day needs to be extended?

The problem is how the casting takes place. If it requires 5 spells cast in immediate succession, you're looking at 2-5 casters who can cast 9th level spells, or 1 caster who is 20th level and has 28+ int or wis, or an epic level caster who has taken the feat to have at least 5 9th level spell slots. How do you decide which caster/s lose spell slot/s for the duration of item creation?

Cheapest possibility - though I don't think this is possible since it appears the creation requires 5 spells - if you only have to cast wish/miracle once. In this case, the creator could handle the initial casting and lose a 9th level spell for 138 days.

Most expensive possibility - all 5 spells need to be cast in immediate succession, and all contributing casters need to lose one slot per spell they contributed, for the duration. Which may require an epic level caster (creator or contributor) giving up 5 level 9 spell slots for almost 5 months.

Any thoughts on my interpretation or on how that should be ruled?

Aaron

 

[Hellefire]

Ah yeah the over-lapping thing. I think you're right, that the highest would be in effect, and thus it would be possible to later find/make a +5 book and read it.

Still pretty new to the 3.x rules and interpretations . Thanks for your help!

Aaron

 

[werk]

Anyway, back to the original concern - from what I read, rings of protection do NOT stack now. I'm going to go with that unless anyone has any other ideas/links/etc that would prove otherwise. Kind of a sad day for my naked spellcasters though .

Rings of protection do not stack with other rings of protection, or anything providing a deflection bonus...like the Shield of Faith spell.

They do stack with bracers of armor (or armor), necklaces of natural armor (or natural armor), or other items providing bonuses that affect armor class that are not deflection bonuses, like dodge, luck, divine, shield, etc.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

There are a few other loose ends that should be stated - although it is admittedly a bit on the obvious side:

You can have an enhancement bonus to STR and and enhancement bonus to a weapon which seem like they are stacking for the purposes of your (non-finessed) melee attacks. After all, the enhancement to STR increases your STR mod which gets added to your BAB and your enhancement bonus to the weapon gets added to the BAB. But, this is acceptable because it isn't two enhancements to BAB, one enhancement is enhancing STR while the other enhancement is enhancing your weapon.

Also, the "Tomes Stacking" thing is a common houserule since economically a +2 Tome and a later +3 Tome is equivalent in gold to a +5 Tome. However, if you allow this houserule be prepared for your players to buy +1 (or +2) Tomes and stack them until they get a cumulative +5, because that would be the intelligent way to do it. That isn't going to break your game ... but in a game where the players stats are high already (say from a 32 point buy or higher - or some method that results in a 32 point buy or higher) it will effectively make the characters seem like they are a higher level than the game rules expect. To give a quick example, The game expects most 1st level melee experts to have an attack range of between +3 and +5. [+1 BAB and anywhere between +2 to +4 for the STR score, depending on power level] Likewise, the game expects that range to be between +4 and +6 [+2 BAB and the same scores as before. Thrown in a +1 for MWK if you want to be technical] However, the difference in the number is reflected primarily by the BAB increase which for melee characters is +1. Thus, any adjustment to STR makes them feel in combat as though they are a bit higher than they actually are. Now the game assumes that by the time a character can afford a +4 or +5 Tome that they should have that power. But the game does not assume that when a character can afford the +2 Tome that they will have it, because it isn't always a wise economic move. Allowing them to stack won't break your game, but it will increase the power level of the characters mid-game.

Also, be careful about being too literal with the process of creating magic items. Worrying about things like timing of spells is often more trouble than its worth. I've found that in item creation I read what spells are necessary, find out if the person (or people) crafting the item are capable of casting them, and then just roll to see if they were successful. The reason I don't get into too much detail is because much of magic item creation is merely guidelines. Magic item pricing are guidelines. Even the rules can get a bit wonky in some cases if you take them too literal. Same with the process of creating items. Sure, you've gotta make sure that the prerequisites for making the item are met by those involved. But don't worry about taking it too literal. Take it to where it is still fun, but if you start pulling out your hair you've gone too far!

Hope this helps. Hope you are still having fun learning the rules.