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Rules help: Familiars

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Like a lot of his other twitter rulings JC didn't really have a lot of choice. Intended interaction or not there'd have to be errata to rule any other way.

I agree with the cheesiness, I only used the option with my chain lock when we were in real trouble because it just felt off having an invis familiar doling out advantage.

I disagree that it would need errata. If you take the whole passage as relating to the rule, as 5e is generally written, your ally only gets advantage on their first attack if a) the ally is attacking a target within 5 ft of you, b) you've used your action to Help, and c) the ally's attack comes before your next turn. All of the conditions in the text must be met, not just those of the last sentence.

Now, I can see some arguments about ambiguity in the first sentence about timing, but that's at the level of a tweet, not errata.
 

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The full relevant Help action text:
"Alternatively, you can aid a friendly creature in attacking a creature within 5 feet of you. You feint, distract the target, or in some other way team up to make your ally’s attack more effective. If your ally attacks the target before your next turn, the first attack roll is made with advantage" [Basic Rules]

So your familiar can use Help to "aid a friendly creature in attacking a creature within 5 feet of [it]" and then since the only requirements beyond using the action within 5 feet of the target is time based the familiar is free to move away. This is no different from using the attack action to attack a creature within 5 feet of you and then moving away after. Without any caveats once an action is spent it has done its thing.

For narrative reasoning the owl swoops in and screeches in the goblins ear and flies off before the goblin can take a swing. The subsequent ear ringing distracts the goblin enough to not notice your hammer blow until too late.

Furthermore the JC has clarified the intent of Help a few times
Can use help and leave http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/11/03/help-action-2/
Familiars can help http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/12/09/familiar-help/
Familiars can still help http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/11/25/can-a-familiar-use-help-to-grant-advantage-at-range/

I stand corrected. Seems that the crawford rules different than i do. I am ruling differnt though based on the rules text and based on the fact that the creature potentilally has a full turn, can move away. Cast spells without being distracted and eventually kill you and still not ged rid off your distraction... no thank you. That is taking it alottle too far.
Note that maybe if the enemy kills you, you could make a case that the blood spills distractingly in the enemy's face.
 

ryan92084

Explorer
I disagree that it would need errata. If you take the whole passage as relating to the rule, as 5e is generally written, your ally only gets advantage on their first attack if a) the ally is attacking a target within 5 ft of you, b) you've used your action to Help, and c) the ally's attack comes before your next turn. All of the conditions in the text must be met, not just those of the last sentence.

Now, I can see some arguments about ambiguity in the first sentence about timing, but that's at the level of a tweet, not errata.

I suppose we see the potential for ambiguity in the first sentence differently. Since I see little to none IMO ruling otherwise would have opened a can of worms for any other single action that has lingering effects and a range requirement at onset.

I stand corrected. Seems that the crawford rules different than i do. I am ruling differnt though based on the rules text and based on the fact that the creature potentilally has a full turn, can move away. Cast spells without being distracted and eventually kill you and still not ged rid off your distraction... no thank you. That is taking it alottle too far.
Note that maybe if the enemy kills you, you could make a case that the blood spills distractingly in the enemy's face.




If you want to take an action and use the help action to throw that blood in an enemies face, sure go for it
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
If you want to take an action and use the help action to throw that blood in an enemies face, sure go for it

Precisely. If you're alive and want to forego your Attack then use the Help action and roleplay/fluff/narrate it as blood from your wounds getting into the enemy's eyes.
 

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
1) It's just too cheesy.
I think it is only "cheesy" because you view your 5th point the way you do.
2) I agree with the logic that since a familiar can't Attack, it's not an Action it's capable of, and thus cannot Help.
I will say that I think that is fine reasoning to go with as it does make sense that not being allowed to use the attack actually in the stat-block be treated as the same thing as not having any attacks in the stat-block. It just happens to also make sense to reason that because that attack is in the stat-block that the familiar is "capable" but "disallowed."

The reason I go with the later ruling, rather than the former, is because having a familiar is a very minor benefit and is only taken when having a familiar is an important part of the character's concept, so there being one more way in which a familiar might actually benefit the character/player - and thus not seem like the equivalent of saying "I'm just going to skip 10+ gp that I'd otherwise have, and one of my possible in-the-spellbook-for-free 1st level spells" - seems like a bad thing to not do.

3) It's OP in the case of the Owl.
Another point that I think is only thought because of your view on your 5th point.
4) It leads to a choice trap: the Owl is so obviously the "best" familiar.
There is no trap here. In order for there to be a trap, the other options wouldn't have to just be "not the best" - they would have to be "not at all worth it." That isn't the case because those other options are still worth it, especially if you are in some kind of area where an owl might be suspicious and indicate information you don't want others to know (such as that you are in the area, scouting them via out-of-place animal shape). Also making the option not at all a trap: it isn't a permanent choice. You don't get stuck never being able to utilize an owl familiar if you decided to start your coastal adventures with a familiar that can swim, for example.

5) It leads to the DM trying to kill the Owl, and I don't think intentionally designed abilities should drive that kind of player-vs-DM escalation.
There is no "escalation" here. The DM is not "trying to kill the owl" so much as they are "trying to have the monsters do stuff that 'makes sense' in the current circumstances". A monster taking an angry swat at whatever keeps giving it's foes a leg-up in defeating it is one such action, whether the thing the swat is directed at is a familiar, a player-character, another monster or NPC, or an inanimate object/force the monster is too stupid to realize a swat isn't going to affect.

Of course, this is all just my opinion, and entirely based on my experience both as player of a character whose personality heavily involved/relied up interaction with their cat familiar, and as a DM for players that enjoy characters with animal-shaped helpers, and our disagreements are in no way meant to belittle your opinions, you as a person, or the games you run/play in (covering my elf, as I don't want it crushed ;)).

Edit: to hopefully resurrect the formatting I just murdered.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I suppose we see the potential for ambiguity in the first sentence differently. Since I see little to none IMO ruling otherwise would have opened a can of worms for any other single action that has lingering effects and a range requirement at onset.
Like? Serious question, as I can't recall anything of the top of my head that would be impacted.

Regardless, Help is generally a substandard option, and this is only really minorly abusable by things like owl familiars to which i can either take countermeasures or just say no to, so it's not a big deal which you go with. I don't like the Sage Advice, so I shall be taking other Sage Advice into account when I decide to ignore the suggestions on this rule.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
I think it is only "cheesy" because you view your 5th point the way you do.
I will say that I think that is fine reasoning to go with as it does make sense that not being allowed to use the attack actually in the stat-block be treated as the same thing as not having any attacks in the stat-block. It just happens to also make sense to reason that because that attack is in the stat-block that the familiar is "capable" but "disallowed."

Mmm...I'm not using "cheesy" to mean "misinterpretation of the rules". I'm using it to mean exploitation of a loophole in the rules, in a way that just doesn't feel "realistic" (although I hate that word). Example: last week I sat at a table with an elf rogue who was excited to try Polearm Master: "If I hold a staff in my offhand as a 1H weapon I get a free attack with my rapier whenever anybody comes within 10'!" (Polearm Master doesn't actually STATE that the free attack is with the polearm itself...)

Cheesy.

The reason I go with the later ruling, rather than the former, is because having a familiar is a very minor benefit and is only taken when having a familiar is an important part of the character's concept, so there being one more way in which a familiar might actually benefit the character/player - and thus not seem like the equivalent of saying "I'm just going to skip 10+ gp that I'd otherwise have, and one of my possible in-the-spellbook-for-free 1st level spells" - seems like a bad thing to not do.

First, the familiar is still incredibly useful in lots of ways. Delivering touch attacks. Stealth scouting. Or "I'd rather spend 10g than die" scouting. Sitting on your shoulder (as you pointed out) using Perception.

Second, it's a 1st level spell. A ritual, no less. Granting Advantage practically forever, without even using a bonus action or initial action, seems way too powerful compared to other 1st level spells.

There is no trap here. In order for there to be a trap, the other options wouldn't have to just be "not the best" - they would have to be "not at all worth it."

Here I think we are using the term "choice trap" differently. In my definition the other choices can still be good, but if one choice is markedly superior then there is decision pressure to take it.

I made this post because my Warlock just 3rd and I'm getting a familiar. It's in the new Ravenloft content so I actually want a Raven, not an Owl. But...grumble grumble...free Advantage with Flyby (plus Advantage on Perception!) is soooooo good that the little minmaxer in me is having a hard time trading it for a familiar that can imitate voices.

Can I still take Raven if it's so important to me? Sure. But I don't think it's good design if I have to give up so much just to get the roleplay/fluff that I prefer. (Heck, look at all the insistence that Greatsword > Greataxe || Maul just because of a minor statistical difference.)

That's what I mean by false choice.

There is no "escalation" here. The DM is not "trying to kill the owl" so much as they are "trying to have the monsters do stuff that 'makes sense' in the current circumstances". A monster taking an angry swat at whatever keeps giving it's foes a leg-up in defeating it is one such action, whether the thing the swat is directed at is a familiar, a player-character, another monster or NPC, or an inanimate object/force the monster is too stupid to realize a swat isn't going to affect.

I'm not saying the DM can't justify it. It's just that I see that as a rationalization for what's really going on: the DM is trying to thwart the player's overuse of (what I see as) a rules loophole. It's a shift in mindset that I don't like.

And it's particularly obvious/problematic with Owls because "swatting at the annoying critter" isn't an option: suddenly the DM starts always including an adversary with ranged attacks, or otherwise contriving fights to make sure there's a way to kill the Owl. With Flyby it's not even a dice roll: the monsters simply don't get to attack it. Without Flyby I'd have a lot less problem with the tactic because it'd be easy enough to kill the thing.
 

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
I'm using it to mean exploitation of a loophole in the rules, in a way that just doesn't feel "realistic" (although I hate that word).
That is the meaning I assumed you were using, and the one to which I was commenting that I think you only think that because you view the DM having the natural, "realistic" (I hate that word to, and usually use "believable" instead) consequence occur as being inherently inappropriate.

Example: last week I sat at a table with an elf rogue who was excited to try Polearm Master: "If I hold a staff in my offhand as a 1H weapon I get a free attack with my rapier whenever anybody comes within 10'!" (Polearm Master doesn't actually STATE that the free attack is with the polearm itself...)
That is a bad example because the phrase "While you are wielding..." is included in that feature of the feat, and a weapon that requires two hands to use being held in one hand is not a weapon you are wielding according to how the game rules use that word. Of course, I still get what you are saying about the exploitation of actual loop-holes.

First, the familiar is still incredibly useful in lots of ways. Delivering touch attacks. Stealth scouting. Or "I'd rather spend 10g than die" scouting. Sitting on your shoulder (as you pointed out) using Perception.
I am aware that it has uses, but each of those are not so useful as to make another use "too much" even when taken collectively. The delivery of touch attacks, for example, naturally encourages the consequence of the familiar being attacked along the lines of "Ah! Electric rats?!" *Stomp*. As for stealth scouting... that's extremely situational since scouting is not always needed, and often when it is there is some character in the party that is always going to be better at it than the familiar. Same with "I'd rather spend 10 gp than die." scouting.

Not that scouting isn't useful, or really important in a typical campaign scenario, just that a familiar is not so good at it for that to be "enough" for the effect of having a familiar to be, even with the other uses besides help added on.

Second, it's a 1st level spell. A ritual, no less. Granting Advantage practically forever, without even using a bonus action or initial action, seems way too powerful compared to other 1st level spells.
And now you have shown a clear example of it being your opinion on the DM having a monster ever attack the familiar that is causing at least some of your issues with the spell - because "Granting advantage practically forever" is far outside what the spell ends up doing at my table, where the familiar only avoids attack so long as it isn't in competition for current most annoying thing happening to the attacker, and when recovering the familiar takes up significant time and resources because it's not just 10 gold coins that magically vanish to complete a casting, it's the materials bought with 10 gp some time in advance or requiring a trip to a store on top of the time already required, and it takes 70 minutes to cast as a ritual so can't just treat the familiar as if it doesn't matter if it gets killed in every encounter because you can't always take 70 minutes before getting yourself into another.

The most recent incident of a player at my table having their familiar die (well, as much as one can die) was entirely because the character sent their familiar to help against a creature that had multiple attacks and only one other target within its reach without provoking an opportunity attack by moving enough to get more targets in reach, and the familiar didn't just pop back for the next few encounters because the party didn't have the time to spend on that - they did have the time to take a short rest, which the familiar-having character decided (smartly, I think) to actually rest rather than spend the time (plus 10 minutes) casting the ritual.

The player didn't feel like I was "escalating" anything either; they recognized that putting their familiar in that position wasn't a good idea, even though it would have been if there were more enticing targets around the monster.

Here I think we are using the term "choice trap" differently. In my definition the other choices can still be good, but if one choice is markedly superior then there is decision pressure to take it.
Right, same definition, again... I just don't agree that owl is the "markedly superior" choice in literally all situations.

I made this post because my Warlock just 3rd and I'm getting a familiar. It's in the new Ravenloft content so I actually want a Raven, not an Owl. But...grumble grumble...free Advantage with Flyby (plus Advantage on Perception!) is soooooo good that the little minmaxer in me is having a hard time trading it for a familiar that can imitate voices.
Again, looking at it as "free advantage" is what is causing the problem - not what the owl is actually capable of in practice.

Heck, look at all the insistence that Greatsword > Greataxe || Maul just because of a minor statistical difference.
So... look at almost never by any margin large enough to care about, and most certainly not if I have any feature that allows re-rolls or extra rolls of damage dice because high rolls are cool and more likely with a d12 than 2d6?

That's what I mean by false choice.
...and exactly why I say it isn't.



And it's particularly obvious/problematic with Owls because "swatting at the annoying critter" isn't an option
That's false.
suddenly the DM starts always including an adversary with ranged attacks
...do you not frequently use adversaries with ranged attack options? I do. Most monsters and NPCs in the game have them built right in, even.
or otherwise contriving fights to make sure there's a way to kill the Owl.
I've killed an owl familiar, and I contrived nothing in doing so. In fact, It wasn't even really intentional - the owl just wasn't outside the area of effect and took some damage as a result.

Flyby isn't as potent inherently, as your choices as DM are causing it to be.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
That is a bad example because the phrase "While you are wielding..." is included in that feature of the feat, and a weapon that requires two hands to use being held in one hand is not a weapon you are wielding according to how the game rules use that word. Of course, I still get what you are saying about the exploitation of actual loop-holes.

Ok, I'm going to stop doing back and forth on most of this because obviously we disagree. Some of it is just philosophy.

But on the Polearm thing a quarterstaff can be wielded in one hand. The possible out is that it's not light so you can't "wield" it with another weapon (without yet another Feat, anyway) but that's not as direct and explicit as I'd like, in order to prevent a silly interpretation.
 

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
Ok, I'm going to stop doing back and forth on most of this because obviously we disagree. Some of it is just philosophy.
Indeed, it is mostly just philosophy.
But on the Polearm thing a quarterstaff can be wielded in one hand. The possible out is that it's not light so you can't "wield" it with another weapon (without yet another Feat, anyway) but that's not as direct and explicit as I'd like, in order to prevent a silly interpretation.
The "out" is that if you are attacking with a rapier, but not the quarterstaff, then you are "holding" the staff, not "wielding" it as the game uses the term.

Of course, that I find that to be direct and explicit and you don't is just a difference in philosophy, so it's not really all that important to debate when we both arrive at the same conclusion: the player can't do a thing which is clearly not intended just because words can be twisted by their reader.
 

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