[+] Rules light RPGs

[Mezuka]

Don't laugh @Mezuka, that's basically how Dave Arneson ran games, MAR Barker ran games (not the most ringing endorsement of late, to be sure), and Bob Meyer continues to run Blackmoor games.

Ancient-school roleplaying: an exclusive Interview with grognard Bob Meyer

Bob Meyer is one of the original Twin Cities gamers. For many years, he („Robert the Bald“) played with Dave Arneson personally. And he keeps Dave‘s Blackmoor and his style of gaming alive. AND: he…

darkwormcolt.wordpress.com

Actually, I find this very clever. I'm not surprised Arneson did this.

 

[Sir Brennen]

I have a feeling I would enjoy a rules light system. Unfortunately, with most RPGs there are a bunch of things I really like and a bunch of things I really don’t like. I may end up making some weird Frankenstein homebrew of BECMI and some other systems. I do like thinking about these things.

I think that's another big draw of rules light systems... they're usually very hackable allowing the GM to make them more in line with what they envision.

 

[overgeeked]

Actually, I find this very clever. I'm not surprised Arneson did this.

Ah. Sorry I misunderstood the laugh emoji, then.

 

[aia_2]

The interview is interesting, very interesting... The point is however the definition of rpg... You could have a "full storytelling game", even without a single roll of die and still call this rpg. This is a mere question of definition.

I don't want to be misunderstood: among storytelling and wargaming i am definitely prone to the first one but in any case i love some features like die checks, a bit of mechanics just not to fall into a total storytelling framework (which is closer to theatre rather than game).

 

[overgeeked]

From another thread...

Matt Mercer. “This is a testament to why I love playing with newer players. There’s a cycle I’m noticing, through the years of playing. Like a player cycle. When you first begin, you don’t know the boundaries that a lot of experienced players expect or understand. The more you know the game, the more you tend to, more often than not, stay within the confines of what the game establishes as the rules. When you’re new to it, you don’t really understand that so you take wider swings, you make stranger choices. You really kind of push against those boundaries because you don’t know where the boundaries are. You’re like a kid learning to how to walk for the first time and bumping into the furniture. And it’s wonderful, and eventually you kind of fall into those lines and not always, but sometimes you find yourself kind of subconsciously sticking, coloring within the lines because you’ve learned to do so. Then over time you begin to realize you’ve been doing that. And then you go back to being weird again. And that’s my other favorite point. It’s new players or extremely experienced players who have come back to reclaim their ‘stupid’ youth as players.”

That strikes me as very much a “Zen Mind, Beginner’s Mind” kinda thing. Try whatever. Don’t worry about the rules. They don’t really matter and they get in your way. Limit you, even if subconsciously. You’re playing a character who’s supposed to be a real person in a real place in a real situation. Have them do whatever you think they’d do in that situation. Not what the rules say you can do. And that’s why I love rules light games and FKR-style play. I don’t want there to be lines. I want to just color.

The bit I’m referencing is from this Critical Role video around the 1:05:30 mark.

 

[Aldarc]

That strikes me as very much a “Zen Mind, Beginner’s Mind” kinda thing. Try whatever. Don’t worry about the rules. They don’t really matter and they get in your way. Limit you, even if subconsciously. You’re playing a character who’s supposed to be a real person in a real place in a real situation. Have them do whatever you think they’d do in that situation. Not what the rules say you can do. And that’s why I love rules light games and FKR-style play. I don’t want there to be lines. I want to just color.

I agree with the overall point that new players tend to come with more open-ended expectations about what they can do. Where I am critical, however, is the idea that players in FKR are somehow free from forming such habits by the mere virtue of having less rules. My experiences suggest that players will still form such habits, albeit around the GM rather than the rules: hence "play referees, not rules." I'm already seeing such tendencies among the players, for example, in a B/X game that I'm partaking in. It's becoming less about playing in greater accordance to the written rules of the game and more about playing in greater accordance to the unwritten rules of the GM. It's seemingly trading one master for another.

 

[aia_2]

From another thread...

Matt Mercer. “This is a testament to why I love playing with newer players. There’s a cycle I’m noticing, through the years of playing. Like a player cycle. When you first begin, you don’t know the boundaries that a lot of experienced players expect or understand. The more you know the game, the more you tend to, more often than not, stay within the confines of what the game establishes as the rules. When you’re new to it, you don’t really understand that so you take wider swings, you make stranger choices. You really kind of push against those boundaries because you don’t know where the boundaries are. You’re like a kid learning to how to walk for the first time and bumping into the furniture. And it’s wonderful, and eventually you kind of fall into those lines and not always, but sometimes you find yourself kind of subconsciously sticking, coloring within the lines because you’ve learned to do so. Then over time you begin to realize you’ve been doing that. And then you go back to being weird again. And that’s my other favorite point. It’s new players or extremely experienced players who have come back to reclaim their ‘stupid’ youth as players.”

That strikes me as very much a “Zen Mind, Beginner’s Mind” kinda thing. Try whatever. Don’t worry about the rules. They don’t really matter and they get in your way. Limit you, even if subconsciously. You’re playing a character who’s supposed to be a real person in a real place in a real situation. Have them do whatever you think they’d do in that situation. Not what the rules say you can do. And that’s why I love rules light games and FKR-style play. I don’t want there to be lines. I want to just color.

Great great great comment! I have to bookmark it somehow!
This is one of the key features i want to preserve and ideally extend over time in the game i have written... I hope I found a way to prolong this status of "looking at the world with the eyes of a child", or i hope so.
Where is the quote from? Why this topic has been discussed? I am highly interested in this discussion...
This is one of the three reasons i decided to write my own RPG!

 

[Malmuria]

I agree with the overall point that new players tend to come with more open-ended expectations about what they can do. Where I am critical, however, is the idea that players in FKR are somehow free from forming such habits by the mere virtue of having less rules. My experiences suggest that players will still form such habits, albeit around the GM rather than the rules: hence "play referees, not rules." I'm already seeing such tendencies among the players, for example, in a B/X game that I'm partaking in. It's becoming less about playing in greater accordance to the written rules of the game and more about playing in greater accordance to the unwritten rules of the GM. It's seemingly trading one master for another.

I think this is a feature not a bug for this playstyle. The referee is “playing the world,” and responsible for all the fiction that entails. The idea is that a human person can be more flexible and dynamic than a rule system in fulfilling that role.

That said, I think this style of play could use referee and player principles and and procedures, much like what other games have. OSR advice—rulings not rules, answer is not on character sheet, etc—is a good start, but could be elaborated upon to give guidance as to how a “ruling” ought to be made, and if/how the players can participate in that action.

 

[overgeeked]

I think this is a feature not a bug for this playstyle. The referee is “playing the world,” and responsible for all the fiction that entails. The idea is that a human person can be more flexible and dynamic than a rule system in fulfilling that role.

Absolutely.

That said, I think this style of play could use referee and player principles and and procedures, much like what other games have. OSR advice—rulings not rules, answer is not on character sheet, etc—is a good start, but could be elaborated upon to give guidance as to how a “ruling” ought to be made, and if/how the players can participate in that action.

Exactly. Every referee is different, every game is different, every genre is different, and every table is different. You make those calls based on what you and your group are going for. Realism in a historical game. Genre emulation in a superhero game. Cinematic tone for a one shot.

But yeah, it’s something talked about in the community. Principles and the reasons for making this call instead of that. FKR referees don’t have a problem answering questions as to why. That’s part of the trusting playstyle. Don’t argue about a call, but if you want to know, the referee should be able and willing to tell you why they decided how they did.

 

[Aldarc]

I think this is a feature not a bug for this playstyle. The referee is “playing the world,” and responsible for all the fiction that entails. The idea is that a human person can be more flexible and dynamic than a rule system in fulfilling that role.

That said, I think this style of play could use referee and player principles and and procedures, much like what other games have. OSR advice—rulings not rules, answer is not on character sheet, etc—is a good start, but could be elaborated upon to give guidance as to how a “ruling” ought to be made, and if/how the players can participate in that action.

Okay, I'm familiar with these talking points already, but this really doesn't address my main point about how FKR is not necessarily free from players growing into more play-limiting habit formations as a result of their play experiences with a referee rather than rules. This is to say my gut reaction to the promotion of "exceptionalism" regarding any field, fanbase, or community is critical skepticism, as it rarely if ever holds up to scrutiny.