Rules-Lite VS "Crunchy" TTRPG Systems

[SableWyvern]

My biggest concerns for most of the Rules-Light TTRPGs I've encountered is that they require a great deal of trust in the GM

I remain confused that so many people are OK playing games with GMs they don't trust.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Vampire the Masquerade, Call of Cthulhu, Blade Runner, Shadowrun, and Cyberpunk are all games where the setting and the rules tell you what the game is all about.

Yes. Those games are pretty clear about it. Not every game is.

 

[Umbran]

I remain confused that so many people are OK playing games with GMs they don't trust.

Well, the word "trust" can mean a whole lot of different things.

 

[Thomas Shey]

You seem to be talking past him, in some other conversation than he is in.

He noted (and he can correct me if I am wrong) - unless the game tells you that is plays broadly in its genre, you should not expect that it will do so.

You're carrying on about design, but it is unclear why you are doing so in response to what he said.

In particular, if you're talking about a game with a baked-in setting (which Vampire has) to expect it to serve another setting is not reasonable. If it does, that's a coincidence of the two settings making common assumptions, but there's no reason to expect it. This ends up leading down a whole chain of potential aim points; the next step might be a game aimed at modern urban fantasy vampire-centric stories, which is not necessarily going to do a good job of supporting a vampire-hunting game, because even though they both involve vampires their assumptions and focus will be quite different. At the far end of this is a determinedly generic game that includes rules for vampires as part of its mechanics, where the rules can rightly be critiqued for not being generic enough.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I remain confused that so many people are OK playing games with GMs they don't trust.

As Umbran notes, "trust" covers a great degree of ground. I don't play with a GM who's intentions I don't trust. But their judgment? I don't trust anyone's judgment unlimitedly without a great degree of experience with them, why would I do it here? And I'm not even one of the people who ends up with new GMs with some frequency, where until they're around them for a while, they just can't know about either.

 

[Umbran]

As Umbran notes, "trust" covers a great degree of ground. I don't play with a GM who's intentions I don't trust. But their judgment?

Trust is earned, right? If you haven't worked with someone sufficiently in the past, they can't have earned your trust.

Heck, the first few times I run a new system, I don't trust myself to do so optimally or perfectly. Learning a new system takes a certain amount of trial and error - so someone's going to get my errors!

 

[Thomas Shey]

Trust is earned, right? If you haven't worked with someone sufficiently in the past, they can't have earned your trust.

Heck, the first few times I run a new system, I don't trust myself to do so optimally or perfectly. Learning a new system takes a certain amount of trial and error - so someone's going to get my errors!

Yup. And of course even otherwise good GMs are not always as good at acknowledging mistakes for various reasons.

 

[GuardianLurker]

I remain confused that so many people are OK playing games with GMs they don't trust.

1. GM shortage; it's always been a problem. Whether its a real one, or merely a perception issue, is actually immaterial here - the effect is the same.
2. Styles of play(?) If you expect a killer wargamer of a GM, the Machiavellian storyteller will be problematic. Likewise if you're expecting an impartial judge, and instead you get a biased director.
3. My point was that rules lite games directly increase the relative power of the GM (compared to the players). Whether or not this is a good thing depends on the GM and the players.

 

[Micah Sweet]

3. My point was that rules lite games directly increase the relative power of the GM (compared to the players). Whether or not this is a good thing depends on the GM and the players.

That depends. Are storygames like PBtA considered rules light (I hate "lite")? Because those games put pretty solid limits on GM authority compared to more traditional systems.

 

[overgeeked]

3. My point was that rules lite games directly increase the relative power of the GM (compared to the players). Whether or not this is a good thing depends on the GM and the players.

These aren’t correlated like you seem to think. It’s the style of game that determines the relative power of the referee vs players, not the word count of the rules. You can have rules light or heavy referee-less storygames, just like you can have rules light or heavy trad games where the referee is all powerful.