Rules of the Game: Sneak Attacks

[Hypersmurf]

The new instalment of Rules of the Game is up.

So far so good... although I would have liked to have seen it pointed out that someone with Uncanny Dodge doesn't lose their Dex bonus while flat-footed, and thus cannot be sneak attacked for that reason. (He's phrased the sentence that always trips people up - "whether he would be denied" - slightly more clearly earlier, but I'd still like to see attention drawn to it.)

It'll be interesting to see in the next instalment what he has to say about attacking from total concealment - are you considered "invisible", qualifying for a +2 attack bonus? Do you not get the invisible bonus, but deny Dex?

And then there's the "can't reach the vital spots" scenario, which isn't spelled out clearly in the Core rules.

And, of course, Uncanny Dodge vs Feint...

He's picked a big one to tackle this time

-Hyp.

 

[Li Shenron]

... although I would have liked to have seen it pointed out that someone with Uncanny Dodge doesn't lose their Dex bonus while flat-footed, and thus cannot be sneak attacked for that reason.

He names a "section on uncanny dodge", perhaps he is going to include it with the part2, or otherwise it's just a link to the PHB.

However, I think this articles are a very good idea. Only I wish they were not split into different pages once per week, I would rather have one single page with the explanation, and at most to keep the examples on a different pages, but not necessarily.

 

[Darklone]

Do they provide Errata for these thingies ?

 

[Telperion]

I had a situation two sessions ago where I denied one of my players a sneak attack. Looking at those notes I may have to reconsider, but here's how things went...

The ranger / assassin was spotted in an alley and five city guards approached him. They told him to "hug the wall" and the character complied. Next they formed into a solid ring around him (the wall covered the character's backside, so they just occupied the 5 remaining squares around him), and told him to strip. At this point the character did mind, and he called for an Initiative Roll. I have to admit that I should have called for the initiative check myself the moment the guards spotted him, but I hadn't. So, the high-dexterity ranger / assassin scores highest, and declares a sneak attack on one of the "flat-footed" city guards.

Now, in my opinion these guards aren't going to be surprised, let alone flat-footed, when their target goes to offensive mode. So, I simply said to the player "No one's surprise here, so no Sneak Attack". I made a mistake in not calling for the Initiative Roll earlier, but it's just that when players hear the DM calling for Initiative they are itching for a fight, no matter what the situation. The guards didn't want to fight this guy, so I just played along until we had to switch from roleplaying to rollplaying.

In any event the character did manage to escape, although with serious wounds and a nice blood trail left behind for the guardmen's dogs to follow .

Funny thing that: for some reason I see very few people actually using animals for anything else except for food or the occasional sport scene. In my opinion common animals are very much a part of any fantasy setting, and I enjoy sending a pair of blood hounds after a bleeding character !

 

[Darklone]

Unlikely as it seems, I do think these sneak attacks would have been by the rules.

There's a reason why my city guards usually let the bad boys lie on the ground and put a boot into their neck.

You don't need surprise to score sneak attacks, two guys in front of each other (High noon style) still roll for initiative and the loser is flat-footed.

Real world examples... Well, I heard enough stories about police officers being stabbed or beaten by "wallhuggers". It's just unlikely someone is fast enough (or faster than 5 city guards), but not impossible.

 

[Telperion]

Real world examples... Well, I heard enough stories about police officers being stabbed or beaten by "wallhuggers". It's just unlikely someone is fast enough (or faster than 5 city guards), but not impossible.

Yes, that's what got me thinking. Basically all the character needs, to score a Sneak Attack, is quick reflexes. Ah, it really didn't matter much in the end, since the character took down one of those city guards with a single blow and tumbled out of the circle. After that the city guards were having quite a lot of trouble keeping up with him, although a couple of them did get a good shot with some crossbows they were carrying around.

Anyway, I'll just try and keep this in mind. Flat-footed is flat-footed, and next time I'll call for Initiative the moment the city guards spot a suspicious looking guy.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

Anyway, I'll just try and keep this in mind. Flat-footed is flat-footed, and next time I'll call for Initiative the moment the city guards spot a suspicious looking guy.

That's a very good point... when does initiative start?

Is it only when you know there's going to be violence? When you think there could be?

Arguably, you could be 'in initiative' at all times and so never be caught flat footed?

I think it comes down to whether the guards were expecting an attack from the assasin guy?

If they were then there's no suprise - no sneak attack? Is it different if they thought it was just a regular non violent shake down?

I'd consider a Bluff vs Sense Motive in this situation to see if the guards realised the guy was about to 'kick off'.

 

[Telperion]

That's a very good point... when does initiative start?

Is it only when you know there's going to be violence? When you think there could be?

Arguably, you could be 'in initiative' at all times and so never be caught flat footed?

I think it comes down to whether the guards were expecting an attack from the assasin guy?

If they were then there's no suprise - no sneak attack? Is it different if they thought it was just a regular non violent shake down?

I'd consider a Bluff vs Sense Motive in this situation to see if the guards realised the guy was about to 'kick off'.

I have heard it said that no one can keep alert 24 hours a day, and that's what it means (to me anyway) when we roll initiative. Everyone concentrates on the matter at hand (usually combat) and acts in as effective manner as possible to resolve the situation (again usually trough combat).

The city guards in this example had been ordered by their commander to "keep alert", "double the patrols" (hence such large patrols) and "to arrest any suspicious looking people". They had probably been doing just this for several hours of the night already, and had had nasty incidents before this one. So, in my mind they would be open to the possibility of an attack from their target, and watching out for it.

On a regular night the patrol would probably have been surprised by the burst of violence from this guy walking around in the night.

But, yes, some sort of a skill check would be good in the future. If nothing else then a Sense Motive check for the Player, so his character knows these guards are being careful and not easily surprised.

Thanks Inconsequenti-AL. Those were some good points.

 

[0-hr]

I think you rolled init at the right time. Everything seemed perfect except that the guards should have been flat footed until they got a chance to react.

IMC, I don't do intitiative until violence is imminent - otherwise you get all kinds of "readied action" silliness. So basically, the init roll is made when someone commits to doing something violent against someone else (or anything else that someone else might really want to stop or avoid).

In your scenario, init was rolled as soon as the PC declared his intention to take an action against the guards. I would not have rolled earlier unless the guards had real intentions to hurt (or grapple) the PC at that time.

If the PC had lost the init roll in your case, then I would have had the guards use thier init to "ready an attack against the PC if he does not comply". The PC would start his swing and get tackled (or worse).

One thing I'm not real clear on is whether the PC can tell if he has won initiative or not. Sure the player can see the dice, but the character probably shouldn't know (or have time to make that sort of analysis).

 

[Quasqueton]

I started a seperate thread because I didn't want to hijack this one. But it seems the hijack occurred anyway.

When to roll initiative:
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?t=77753

Quasqueton