Rules/Rolls for Running a Shop

[Jackinthegreen]

It sounds like your DM isn't being very forthcoming. He's lacking in terms of character wealth and trying to work on the shop with you, and likely in other stuff. If he's worried about you guys hating him for the extra CR encounters then he's not designing them with your party in mind.

For the magic item deal, the listed price is of course what NPC's sell it for, and given all the examples of other expenses is probably the point where they're making a worthwhile profit. We don't have the specifics because it hasn't been published sadly.

I'd say what you effectively get from the item is its cost in Gold, XP, (and perhaps time), plus 10% of the item's listed price. So say a wondrous item is worth 10,000 gp. Its cost is 5,000 gp, 400 XP x 5 = 2000 gp. Add 10% of the total to that (1,000 in this case) and you get 8,000 gold. That's about what you should be able to sell an item for, which is 80% of the full price in this case. 70% of that is the cost to create an item, 20% is for other expenses, and then you get a 10% profit.

Does that seem reasonable?

By the way, where did you get the bit about 1 XP being worth 5 GP?

Edit: I found a page from another thread on here you might be interested in looking at: http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Dungeonomi...Economicon:_Making_Sense_of_the_Gold_Standard

 

[Elephant]

1. Short answer, no.

Long answer, it has been pointed out constantly we are far below the average PC wealth as defined by the DMG for 7th/8th Level PCs. Not only that, but the most expensive items we ever got were a pair of swords, one +1 Frost the other Flaming. We had it shipped back to the shop so it could be sold, or at the very least put on display so it could bring in a crowd, because it was possible they could be weapons of a legendary dragon slayer.

However when we returned to the shop, we discovered a powerful assassin buying the swords. Sure, he bought them at full price, so no problem there, except they were sold to cover debt the shop supposedly incurred while away, leaving a profit of 4000 GP (a debt number decided upon before even figuring out how my shop would work). Keep in mind other items were sold while we were gone as well, including four Rings of Protection +1, four +1 weapons, and many other items.

So on top of trying to figure out what to do with the shop so we can actually get some wealth, we have no wealth to work with throughout the entire time. The DM also "sold" our treasure with not even an 1/8 of a return, including the most powerful weapons we've ever come across to an Assassin who is now even more powerful because of it. So no, I don't think he can handle the wealth level to make it fun for us, because he doesn't give us anything to begin with.

2. I'm a little appalled by this question, but I'll answer as best I can. Making and running a magic shop is a goal of my PC, one which he will not stray from. He has pride for his craft and his people, whom he seeks to elevate through this task. As a Player in his game, the DM should find a means to facilitate this goal I seek, regardless if he doesn't think it's fun or worthwhile.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not obsessing and focusing just on the shop in regards to the game/campaign/what have you. It is merely the focus of discussion on this thread, and a hurdle that after two months has still not been resolved. I want to get back into adventuring, discovering mysteries and shaking the foundations of the earth, which I think/hope the DM wants to do. This shop? This is a thing in the game, which I hope will supplement the future gaming we do. But we are stuck until that can actually be figured out.

Okay, follow-up on 1: Does your DM describe the campaign as a low-wealth or low-magic one? That issue might just be a mismatch in expectations ... I've met people who think that the "default" wealth-by-level guidelines were insanely extravagant...

Follow-up on 2: First, sorry to ask such an appalling question. I apologize if I came across as insulting -- I certainly didn't mean it that way! That said, I do see a note of entitlement in your reply: That the DM "should find a means" to incorporate running a magic shop into the game.

Frankly, if I were your DM, I'd say "No magic shops. It's too much of a hassle, and it takes too much time and energy away from the parts of the game I actually enjoy."

On a similar note, from what you've said about your DM, I doubt he's comfortable with trying to build a balanced set of rules for running a shop. It's a nifty idea to say "we'll run a magic shop and get more profit from selling our loot!", but it brings up a lot of business logistics where you have to wing it (or spend a lot of time coming up with detailed Papers and Paychecks rules ).

All that said, I do think it would be unreasonable to say "you get an extra 10%" from each item sold in the shop. Maybe make it a Profession: Shopkeeper/Magic Item Salesman check: if you roll a 15 on your Profession check, you get an extra 15% profit for the item. You'd need something to model how long it takes you to find a buyer ... my first idea would be to roll a die to see how many days or weeks it takes. Which die to use and whether it tells you the number of days or number of weeks is open to negotiation, with city size being a factor. Selling a +3 Shocking Burst sword in a hamlet just ain't gonna happen, but it might sell in under a week in a metropolis.

Mostly what you need is buy-in for the magic item shop from your DM, and for you both to agree on profit rules that a) give you more treasure than selling items at 50% and b) don't give you SO MUCH MORE treasure that you're too rich for him to manage the game.

If the DM feels like the game is spiraling out of control, you're going to have bigger problems than "how much extra should I be able to get by running a magic shop?"

Good luck working this all out with your DM Do you know if he uses any hobby-related websites like enworld?

 

[Jacob]

Update on the situation after responses...

By the way, where did you get the bit about 1 XP being worth 5 GP?

Edit: I found a page from another thread on here you might be interested in looking at: Dungeonomicon (3.5e Sourcebook)/Economicon - Dungeons and Dragons Wiki

The 1 XP = 5 GP equation comes from the Good and Services section of spellcasting. As an example, having someone cast Greater Restoration for you would cost 3410 GP minimum (910 for the Spell Lvl * CL, and 2500 for the 500 XP cost).

And I've noticed the Economicon around the same time of my last post (almost a month!?!). I liked some things about it, and I disliked as well. All the same, a very well done piece of writing. Really all I can say until I delve deeper into the work.

Okay, follow-up on 1: Does your DM describe the campaign as a low-wealth or low-magic one? That issue might just be a mismatch in expectations ... I've met people who think that the "default" wealth-by-level guidelines were insanely extravagant...

Follow-up on 2: First, sorry to ask such an appalling question. I apologize if I came across as insulting -- I certainly didn't mean it that way! That said, I do see a note of entitlement in your reply: That the DM "should find a means" to incorporate running a magic shop into the game.

Frankly, if I were your DM, I'd say "No magic shops. It's too much of a hassle, and it takes too much time and energy away from the parts of the game I actually enjoy."

On a similar note, from what you've said about your DM, I doubt he's comfortable with trying to build a balanced set of rules for running a shop. It's a nifty idea to say "we'll run a magic shop and get more profit from selling our loot!", but it brings up a lot of business logistics where you have to wing it (or spend a lot of time coming up with detailed Papers and Paychecks rules ).

All that said, I do think it would be unreasonable to say "you get an extra 10%" from each item sold in the shop. Maybe make it a Profession: Shopkeeper/Magic Item Salesman check: if you roll a 15 on your Profession check, you get an extra 15% profit for the item. You'd need something to model how long it takes you to find a buyer ... my first idea would be to roll a die to see how many days or weeks it takes. Which die to use and whether it tells you the number of days or number of weeks is open to negotiation, with city size being a factor. Selling a +3 Shocking Burst sword in a hamlet just ain't gonna happen, but it might sell in under a week in a metropolis.

Mostly what you need is buy-in for the magic item shop from your DM, and for you both to agree on profit rules that a) give you more treasure than selling items at 50% and b) don't give you SO MUCH MORE treasure that you're too rich for him to manage the game.

If the DM feels like the game is spiraling out of control, you're going to have bigger problems than "how much extra should I be able to get by running a magic shop?"

Good luck working this all out with your DM Do you know if he uses any hobby-related websites like enworld?

1. It's high magic and high wealth. he's bluntly told us there are 20th Lvl casters who could make us the best gear if we had the wealth (why he's supposedly so worried?). Also, there are 9th Lvl casters (minimum) with +8 to save DCs (more?) casting Symbol of Sleep with spells to stop us from catching them as they work petty crime. That's 1000 GP of gems per casting. Yep.

2. I apologize if I was a bit off in my reply...because I was. Let's just say that after being kicked around the world for so long with emphasis on the DM's theater rather than letting us play...it's gotten to me. I feel no entitlement other than wanting to be able to enjoy the game doing what we the Players wish to do, or at the very least something I mutually wish to do with the DM. No, I don't say this just because of the shop, but as a general sum up of what the game has been like. Issues!

3. No, I don't think he uses many online resources due to the fact not only is his home computer shot, but his only other access is through work. Shame, because there are so many tools online which help the process along. I know he needs help with a lot of what he intends, but all the tools I could give him would be computer based, so...shame.

And now for the updates...

The DM pulled the plug on the shop, and has spearheaded us into a plot with the intention of ending in 4 months time (he said 3 months which would mean 6 sessions, but I don't believe that will happen considering circumstances). He doesn't really enjoy DMing considering the work that goes into it, which makes me wonder why he just doesn't stop entirely. However, he feels he needs to push to the end because he wants to give a proper finish to the game (even though he intended it to get to Lvl 20). Knowing this not only squashes my hope of ever having a prestigious shop, but having any investment in the game at all. It may be just be too much thinking and dread on my part, so I'll see what happens in the coming discussions and sessions.

In regards to logistics/rules of a shop...

1. I see no reason why it needs to be complicated
2. Why my DM wanted it to be complicated and therefore drop because he couldn't handle it
3. Why he needed to drop it if it's really not going to matter in 4 months time

I still insist it would be simple, and would be willing to try the method in my own DM time, but I believe I've already stated as such and being redundant. Till that time comes to pass I really don't know how such a system would work, but it's something to plan for, because one of the Players is considering the idea via his Leadership followers. Will let you all know the status of that when it comes down, because it sounds like very unexplored territory considering the responses I've gotten thus far.