Rules that never made sense to you?

[ivocaliban]

Oh sure, the barbarian might be superficially scarier. But it isn't about scariness. It is about getting what you want.

And what about the demoralize opponent portion of Intimidation? The result of which, if successful, leaves an oppoent shaken. It sure seems like there's some scariness involved here. Granted it's still about getting what you want...you want your opponent to be afraid.

I'm not arguing that Intimidation can't come about through Charisma, of course it can. However, it doesn't take into account the innate intimidating factor of big scary people/things. I agree that lawyers can be among the most intimidating people on the planet, but so can big dumb walls of muscle who just stand there and "look" intimidating.

 

[Storm Raven]

And what about the demoralize opponent portion of Intimidation? The result of which, if successful, leaves an oppoent shaken. It sure seems like there's some scariness involved here. Granted it's still about getting what you want...you want your opponent to be afraid.

I've fought many people in various TKD tournaments, and the big guys are rarely the intimidating ones. And the ones who foam and rage and so on aren't either. It is the ones who, without really having to do anything physical, convince you that they are undefeatable. It is an attitude, a presentation, one might even say, a skill.

I'm not arguing that Intimidation can't come about through Charisma, of course it can. However, it doesn't take into account the innate intimidating factor of big scary people/things. I agree that lawyers can be among the most intimidating people on the planet, but so can big dumb walls of muscle who just stand there and "look" intimidating.

That is where circumstance bonuses can come into play. If you have a wall of muscle with you, he might be worth a circumstance bonus. If you do something that might scare someone more, that might be worth a circumstance bonus to your check, but it might not. That's a DMs call, and that's how the rules are written.

 

[KarinsDad]

That's a DMs call, and that's how the rules are written.

Precisely. And this thread is about poorly written rules which Intimidate is one of. And it is not just using the CHA bonus.

I suspect that if you were being led to the Executioner's block, he would seem more intimidating to you even with the measely normal +2 circumstance bonus the rules use than the Bard singing your funeral dirge in the corner ever was to anyone.

PS. The lawyers who are the heads of law firms are not just the charismatic ones. It's also the very bright ones who never lose cases. Charisma helps win cases, but so does making your opponent's case look moronic.

 

[KarinsDad]

I've fought many people in various TKD tournaments, and the big guys are rarely the intimidating ones. And the ones who foam and rage and so on aren't either. It is the ones who, without really having to do anything physical, convince you that they are undefeatable. It is an attitude, a presentation, one might even say, a skill.

Funny. I've been part of the sponsor team at various TKD tournaments and it is almost always the pure muscle big guys who a) are intimidating and b) win. Even in women's bouts, it is usually the larger opponent who dominates and wins. I've seen so many smaller fast opponents in so many bouts get kicked solidly once and get the wind knocked out of them and they lose the match. I've never seen that with a really large opponent (although I have seen it with "large fat" opponents, but only against a large muscled opponent).

Bruce Lee was an anomally.

 

[Drawmack]

So you'd say I can't take Dodge and Mobility at the same level? (Assuming that in all other aspects, I qualify for Mobility.)

I'm speaking specifically of [Feat Name] Improved [Feat Name] combos. Let me explain where my feeling that this is stupid comes from and then you'll see why I feel that it is stupid.

Here is how I see leveling. You have been practicing X, Y, and Z for a while. Finally after much practice you have achieved a level of skill in it that it is now reflected on your character sheet. (So taking the ride feat for example, is kind of like getting a drivers license - it doesn't appear by magic but represents a lot of hard work).

Therefore if it is reasonable that you could work on two things simultaneously then the player can write them both on the character sheet at the same time.

So dodge and mobility - fine you can have those at the same time.
Cleave and Great Cleave - no you cannot have those at the same time.

 

[Drawmack]

To use your college example: often there will be a handful of students who haven't taken the prereq course, and who take a bridging course or just work very hard to get through Calc II as their first course.

The same could be true of a character (typically a fighter, given the two combat feats bought at once) who takes Cleave and Great Cleave together: they have worked extra-hard to go from zero to hero in one fell swoop.

Do you have a college education? I know that IME you cannot take a course without having had it's prereque unless you get special dispensation from the department chair. Then you'll usually be told you can take them as coreques.

As far as I know - no one is ever allowed to take Calc I and Calc II at the same time (BTW: I'm the head of I.T. at a college so I do have an idea what I'm talking about here).

 

[Drawmack]

Perhaps, and for the most part I'll leave you to your opinion. Instead, I'll just offer an idea that might help you accept it better. Gaining a level is not instantaneous. Sure, applying the changes for a new level are instantaneous, but what you've learned that level are not. Consider the karate example you brought up. How many kata do you learn when you go from 1st degree to 2nd degree? Surely more than 1in any particular style? If not at this belt, then I'd say that you learn more than one at at least one belt change. More importantly, do you learn them one at a time or all at once? Hopefully, you learn them one at a time, not unlike feats.

Okay, I see what you're saying and I agree mostly. However, it would take much longer to learn Cleave and Great Cleave then to learn Dodge and Mobilility as you could not even work on Great Cleave until Cleave had been learned. This is why I do not allow them to be taken at the same time.

 

[Storm Raven]

Precisely. And this thread is about poorly written rules which Intimidate is one of. And it is not just using the CHA bonus.

I suspect that if you were being led to the Executioner's block, he would seem more intimidating to you even with the measely normal +2 circumstance bonus the rules use than the Bard singing your funeral dirge in the corner ever was to anyone.

But the issue here is not whether the exectuioner is scary, or small "i" intimidating. The question is whether they could use that to convince someone who had a choice what to do. I don't think the executioner wants you to run away, but that is what his form of scariness pushes you towards. He is scary, he is not trying to use the Intimidate skill to get you to do what he wants. There is a difference.

PS. The lawyers who are the heads of law firms are not just the charismatic ones. It's also the very bright ones who never lose cases. Charisma helps win cases, but so does making your opponent's case look moronic.

The lawyers who are heads of law firms are rainmakers. Always. Virtually without exception. They are people persons. It is much more common to find a weak trial lawyer at the head of a firm than a poor rainmaker. And most lawyers don't ever try cases. Ever. That's not their job.

 

[Nail]

Do you have a college education? I know that IME you cannot take a course without having had it's prereque unless you get special dispensation from the department chair.

I'm a professor at a local college.

In math, we have two course paths:

Path #1) Calc I, Calc II: must be taken in order, you must pass the first to take the second, takes 2 semesters.

Path #2) Accelerated Calc: Includes both Calc I & Calc II, takes only one semester.

This pattern is repeated in the English department:

Path #1) College Writing I, College Writing II: must be taken in order, you must pass the first to take the second, takes 2 semesters.

Path #2) Accelerated College Writing: Includes both CW I & CW II, takes only one semester.


Q.E.D.

 

[Storm Raven]

Funny. I've been part of the sponsor team at various TKD tournaments and it is almost always the pure muscle big guys who a) are intimidating and b) win. Even in women's bouts, it is usually the larger opponent who dominates and wins. I've seen so many smaller fast opponents in so many bouts get kicked solidly once and get the wind knocked out of them and they lose the match. I've never seen that with a really large opponent (although I have seen it with "large fat" opponents, but only against a large muscled opponent).

I have seen big guys win matches. But in TKD, at least WTF TDK, the fast almost always win. And big guys are rarely fast.