Rules that still feel unneeded (to me)

[Voadam]

Although... wu jen, sorcerers, warmages, beguilers, and wizards effectively drew from the same spell list... I'll grant the psion rules were different, even if the base effect looked an awful lot like the old spell list, it was pretty different.

Warmages and beguilers draw from the same list? I've got the PHII but not the minis handbook and I'm not real familiar with them but I thought they were like beguilers but with evocation spells instead of illusion and enchantments on their spell list so there would be almost no overlap in spell lists. Same thing with the dread Necromancers from the Heroes of Horror one.

Isn't that the expected model for 4e casters to come? That wizards are generally blasters while there will be forthcoming a psion/enchanter that takes the place of the enchantment specialist and a dread necromancer type caster that takes the place of the wizardly necromancer specialist, etc.

I forgot to list the Tome of Magic Binders, Shadowcasters, and Truespeakers for alt full spellcasting class mechanics with different feels. And I'm not sure if Magic of Incarnum created a full caster type incarnum class but I know the incarnum stuff is another mechanical variant.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Damage being absolutely meaningless until 0 would fit in with 30 years of grand tradition, though.

Ah, we welcome 4e and it's simulationist take on combat! Finally, combat that simulates the way people don't just go from healthy to dead all at once!

Oh, I thought simulationism was a bad thing that 4e was getting away from? Doesn't this rule just complicate things by adding another bump in the road? Isn't going from full health to full death simpler?



I like all the rules additions, myself, even the Action Points, which I was a little wary of. I like the milestones and the vicious cycle it creates. I like the bloodied status and the new (complicated, simulationist) options it brings. I adore the second wind/healing surge thing that makes sure no one has to play medic duty (now if they could include another controller so no one has to play Wizard duty, that'd be stellar...) I'm critical of 4e, I'm not a fan of a few of it's core philosophies, but all these pass muster quite smoothly.

 

[keterys]

Sorcerer/Wizard list is your superset. Beguiler and warmage both take subsets of that list.

Removing choices doesn't make things more exciting or different.

 

[Jhaelen]

Warmages and beguilers draw from the same list?

That's where the word 'effectively' comes into play: IIRC, there's only a couple of spells that are actually Beguiler-only. It's similar to the difference between sorcerer and wizard spell lists. Except for two spells in 'Dragon Magic' that are Sorcerer-only I cannot think of any spell that isn't available for both classes.

 

[Voadam]

Sorcerer/Wizard list is your superset. Beguiler and warmage both take subsets of that list.

Removing choices doesn't make things more exciting or different.

By definition removing choices makes things different.

Using different subsets does make things different. I played a beguiler in a game next to a warmage. Our characters were fairly different mechanically and felt different in their effects. My beguiler was different from the sorcerers I've played and from the wizards. Having a focused theme with no spell choices to shore up the weaknesses of that theme was different from the sorcerers I've played. Having spontaneous spells was different from the wizards. Having trap abilities was different from both.

Obviously beguilers and warmages use focused subsets of the wizard arcane spell list just as wizards use a subset of the superset of spells in D&D. Just as obviously their subsets do not overlap significantly and the differences have an impact on game play.

The argument was that 4e splits schools of magic into classes. I am pointing out that this can be done in 3e.

Further, use warmage, beguiler, and dread necromancer instead of wizards and you get school focused full arcane casting classes with little overlap in spell lists. Restrict the casters in a campaign to these and it does give magic in the campaign a feel that is different from the default that can be exciting.

Do not like the restrictions of such a campaign model? Allowing these classes that allow fewer choices but different powers than a sorcerer or wizard in addition to the standard classes then provides different options for players and NPCs as individuals. Alternatively go the other direction and take the generalist wizard one step further on a campaign level with the Unearthed Arcana generalist caster class who uses all spells both arcane and divine and obviates the need for multiple caster classes.

Want entirely new and different mechanics? Use shadowcasters, binders, truenamers, and psions. Or take any of the dozens and dozens of D&D compatible 3rd party caster classes.

 

[Aust Blood]

That means more options, more abilities, and more flexibility (i.e. did you know that ANY class can now learn Raise Dead? Yep, they can.)

Oh? Care to elaborate? My guess it Raise Dead is a ritual and rituals can be learned by anyone given the proper training(feats and the like). Am I getting warm? Or do you not know?

 

[VannATLC]

This. We have to see the whole picture here: in a 10 encounter day you roughly use 5 AP and get 5 extra actions in those 10 enconters (lets say its 60 rounds). If you were to use them all (or maybe just 3 AP per encounter, as I suggested) and save them for later, you would have a reward for extended adventuring. If I only get to use 1 AP per enconter, it doesn't matter if I camp 6 hours every 15 minutus of adventuring, because I am actually rewarded for this slow pace: I don't lose many AP, and recover all my healing surges (and dayly powers). If I can keep my AP for later, and have them ready when I REALLY need them (often a climatic, cinematic fight) I will think twice before I decide to camp again and again.

If them DM is unable to exercise the control over the playing field that would prevent this?
Well, I have no nice words to say about that DM.

The 6 hour mechanic is still less broken than Rope-Trick.
You've actually got to camp and rest in the open, where you could be seen/found.. and interrupted.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I don't like Milestones as from what we know at the moment it seems like an entirely artificial construct, and something extra to keep track of.

I'm perfectly happy with short rests and extended rests; I can "see" them in the game and I could read about adventurers taking short rests or extended rests in a story. I can't "see" milestones in the same manner. (While it is not true for everyone, I personally like adventures to read like a good story when I look back on them).

I can imagine that I might just allow people to recover their action point after their short rest (or just give one out at the start of each encounter) unless there is some terribly compelling reason to not do so which we've not seen yet.

Cheers

 

[hong]

My hunch is that "milestone" is actually defined as something related to plot or narrative, and the rule of thumb, for pacing purposes, is that a milestone should occur once every 2 encounters. Ie, you get a new AP every milestone, but that could be as far away as the DM wants.