Rules that still feel unneeded (to me)

[hong]

I think it may well work, for two reasons.

1) The DM controls the number of milestones, and so can (will) limit the number of AP's that could possibly gain before a 'climax'. With characters having up to 10-20 healing surges, you can easily guess how long a group can keep going.

2) Fights (should) last many rounds, AP's are quite limited in comparison. Having everyone with 5-8 APs will double the damage output for a group for a few rounds, but you will have very few healing surges.

Well, let's say a fight in 4E typically lasts 10 rounds (rough guesstimate). If everyone has 5 APs, they can effectively double their damage output for the entire fight. That sounds too good.

 

[Simon Marks]

*Shrugs*
Sounds good, yes. Too good? Maybe. But 5 APs means around 10 encounters without spending them.

Compare with 'Daily' powers which on average do tripel the amount of damage normally done. If the entire party goes 'nova' on one encounter, then the target(s) take 11d8+4d10+25 and 1d8+5 ongoing (average of 85pts) as compared to a normal of 3d10+2D8+16 (average of 41pts or so). If the party also spend APs (just the one), then they inflict 120pts on average (assuming all attacks hit) vs 40 odd points.

A bunch of APs have to be as good or better than everyone having their daily powers available or we are back to everyone resting before the big fight because it's dumb not to.

 

[Sir Sebastian Hardin]

Well, let's say a fight in 4E typically lasts 10 rounds (rough guesstimate). If everyone has 5 APs, they can effectively double their damage output for the entire fight. That sounds too good.

*Shrugs*
Sounds good, yes. Too good? Maybe. But 5 APs means around 10 encounters without spending them.

This. We have to see the whole picture here: in a 10 encounter day you roughly use 5 AP and get 5 extra actions in those 10 enconters (lets say its 60 rounds). If you were to use them all (or maybe just 3 AP per encounter, as I suggested) and save them for later, you would have a reward for extended adventuring. If I only get to use 1 AP per enconter, it doesn't matter if I camp 6 hours every 15 minutus of adventuring, because I am actually rewarded for this slow pace: I don't lose many AP, and recover all my healing surges (and dayly powers). If I can keep my AP for later, and have them ready when I REALLY need them (often a climatic, cinematic fight) I will think twice before I decide to camp again and again.

 

[Walking Dad]

This. We have to see the whole picture here: in a 10 encounter day you roughly use 5 AP and get 5 extra actions in those 10 enconters (lets say its 60 rounds). If you were to use them all (or maybe just 3 AP per encounter, as I suggested) and same them for later, you would have a reward for extended adventuring. If I only get to use 1 AP per enconter, it doesn't matter if I camp 6 hours every 15 minutus of adventuring, because I am actually rewarded for this slow pace: I don't lose many AP, and recover all my healing surges (and dayly powers). If I can keep my AP for later, and have them ready when I REALLY need them (often a climatic, cinematic fight) I will think twice before I decide to camp again and again.

I thought you can only use one AP per encounter, barring special powers etc.

 

[Stonesnake]

I still don't see any reason for these additions to the game:

- Action points

- Second wind

- Bloodied condition

I was at DDXP and played 4 delves and both LFR campaigns.

Action Points were used by everyone in all the games and were fun to use. Also remember that you can only use ONE Action Point per encounter. Never more than one (however, monsters CAN use more than one AP per encounter). As to "why" you have them, the game is a lot more tactical (a lot more) and something as small as 1 extra action can really change the tide of battle ... and don't forget that some monsters get them as well! Also remember that in many adventures you can't simply "stop and rest" after every single battle and get back your Action Point. For the LFR I was in we went through 4 encounters before we could rest and get back our Action Point for the day.

Second Wind is in there so that you can now heal yourself. Also, like Action Points you can only use Second Wind ONCE per encounter and you have a limited number you can cast per day. Mike Perkins said that one of the main goals of the game was that you could now play without a Cleric -- or any healing character -- if you wanted. In turn they needed to put in a mechanic so that you could heal yourself. Hence second wind was born (FYI it always heals you of 1/4 of your HP). And don't forget that Clerics work very differently now. They can only heal others a limited number of times per encounter (only twice per encounter at DDXP), and when they heal you you have to use your OWN healing surge to heal. So instead of healing always being dependent upon a single person in the party at nearly all times, you literally are responsible for your own healing. Again, in practice this was a FANTASTIC change as people loved having their fate in their hands. Plus when someone died, it was their own damn fault! Gone were the complaints that someone else didn't heal them in time.

Bloodied is perhaps the best change for multiple reasons. First of all, as soon as a monster becomes bloodied you are told that they are. Hence, you now have a visual cue as to which monsters are more damaged than others. No more vague heal checks to try to figure out how damaged someone is, you now have a good idea when someone is going to drop. The other reason for bloodied is that some creatures (and PCs) now have special powers and abilities when they are bloodied (i.e. near death). This is a small, but amazingly effective, change to the system. And it just "feels right". If you know that you're halfway to death you start fighting more fiercely and do more damage. Plus, it allows very interesting tactical situations that you couldn't easily perform in past editions, and not just for the characters but for the DM as well.

For example, when we were fighting the Elite Solo level 4 Black Dragon he has a condition that he can use his breath weapon as soon as he's bloodied. So during his turn he actually used his breath weapon on us and then used an Action Point to attack someone other than the Paladin (the Dragon actually had 2 Action Points and can use them both in the same encounter). Since he didn't attack the Paladin the dragon took damage from the Paladin's challenge, which in turn made the dragon bloodied, which in turn triggered his special ability in which his breath weapon instantly recharged and he got to use it again on us! So two breath weapons and an attack all within the same round! Yeah it sucked for us, but we QUICKLY learned that Dragons are to be taken DAMN seriously in 4th edition. And THAT felt a lot more "realistic" than any other past edition of D&D.


The key thing to remember here is that 4th edition is NO LONGER a representation of what "true combat" would be like. Like Chris Perkins said, "how do you know what combat with magic is really like? We can make it whatever we want, who's to argue that it's 'incorrect'?! It's magic!" Rather it is a game and meant to be fun. Many many many times the various reps from WoTC mentioned this and said that if you wanted to play a game which was closer to a true "medieval realistic" feel there are lots of other systems out there which allow for that sort of experience.

D&D 4th edition was made to be a fun experience with lots of options and a huge emphasis on "yes you can do that". That means more options, more abilities, and more flexibility (i.e. did you know that ANY class can now learn Raise Dead? Yep, they can.) Quite simply the D&D of old is totally gone and if you like the limited, realistic feel of those systems then you might not like 4th edition as much.

However, I played 4th edition with my friends who are the hardest of the hardcore and although they weren't totally sold on the new system, they easily had more fun in combat that ever before. Even they are torn as they didn't love the "video game" feel of the game, but it was SO much fun and tactical that they had a time with their own emotions. It's hard to hate something which is so much damn fun!

 

[Dragonblade]

I thought you can only use one AP per encounter, barring special powers etc.

Correct. Which is why it would make sense just to grant 1 per encounter. I don't understand why you would save them up, unless of course there is some mechanic we haven't see yet that allows you to spend more than one in an encounter. Like a feat or something.

 

[Simon Marks]

I thought you can only use one AP per encounter, barring special powers etc.

By the quick rules, yes;

You begin each adventure with 1 action point, and you can get
another one for every 2 encounters that you complete (called a milestone). You can spend 1 action point per encounter to take one extra action on your turn. It can be a standard, move, or minor action.
When you take an extended rest, your action points reset back to 1.
TIP: Make sure to spend action points at least once every other encounter (as often as you earn them), since you can only spend one per encounter.

I'm just arguing that it's not broken to be able to use more than 1AP in an encounter and that in fact being able to use more than 1 an encounter is a good idea.

However, the Dragon had 2 AP and could use them both.

As such, I'm guessing the following
1) Some feats and powers use action points, possibly more than one.
2) Solo monsters can use multiple action points
3) The limit of one action point per encounter is only for gaining an extra action. A free 'per encounter' ability, like second wind,

If this isn't the case, then I'll see what use action points are and maybe alter to suit my tastes.

 

[Wormwood]

D&D 4th edition was made to be a fun experience with lots of options and a huge emphasis on "yes you can do that".

Music to these old ears! I really like your summary, by the way.

It's hard to hate something which is so much damn fun!

Stick around.

 

[Voadam]

Schools of magic will essentially be different classes with unique mechanics now. That's more support than ever before.

3.5 had tons of different classes along these lines.

PH:
Wizard prep casting
Sorcerer spontaneous casting

XPH
Psion Point casting
Wilder point casting with surges

CA
Warlock at will magics
Wu Jen: wierd elemental stuff

PH II
Beguiler Illusion and Enchantment specialist spontaneous caster

Minis Handbook?
Warmage evocation spontaneous caster specialist

The Horror One?
Dread Necromancer necromancer spontaneous caster specialist

And that is just WotC 3.5 without considering all the alternate d20 and OGL D&D compatible classes out there.

 

[keterys]

Although... wu jen, sorcerers, warmages, beguilers, and wizards effectively drew from the same spell list... I'll grant the psion rules were different, even if the base effect looked an awful lot like the old spell list, it was pretty different.

Maybe. But 5 APs means around 10 encounters without spending them.

Actually 8, since you start with 1... but yeah, this seems pretty settled out.