Ruling needed! Sneak attack in first regular combat round

[theoremtank]

Need a rule ruling please:

If I am playing a rogue and I act in the surprise combat round and strike an opponent who is not yet aware of me, then I realize I get my sneak attack damage since they are flat-footed.

Now, if my party and the enemie's party are both aware of each other, then there is no surpirse round and combat starts with the first regular round. If I am the very first person to strike (because of the highest initiative roll), are all the enemies still flat-footed? Meaning, do I get sneak attack damage?

Also, if I get multiple attacks (say +10/+5) do I get sneak attack damage for all my attacks when striking a flat-footed opponant?


Please, multiple rulings are welcome. Even if you just reiterate what someone else says.

 

[Petrosian]

A person is flatfooted until they act. If you are the first in the first round, then you can sneak attack ANYONE who has not already acted. (exception i think some feat or class ability allows you to keep dex bonus even during flatfooted, so they would not get sneaked at all from this.)

Anyone who also acted in the surprise round is no longer flatfooted.

 

[Vaxalon]

It gets better.

Let's say you get surprise. On the surprise round, you shoot one enemy, and you get your sneak attack damage.

Then you roll initiative for the first regular round, and beat the enemies. Since you have Rapid Shot, you take two shots on your turn, and shoot two more enemies, getting sneak attack damage on both of them. On your next round, the enemies have all acted, so they're not flatfooted anymore.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

Yes to both your questions.

A combatant is flat-footed until he acts in the initiative cycle. Until then, all your attacks are sneak attacks. Those with the Uncanny Dodge ability are exceptions.

 

[firstborne]

Actually...

Uncanny Dodge simply lets you keep your Dex bonus to AC even while flat-footed; you can still be sneak attacked, but your freakish reflexes make it harder to strike you.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

Re: Actually...

Uncanny Dodge simply lets you keep your Dex bonus to AC even while flat-footed; you can still be sneak attacked, but your freakish reflexes make it harder to strike you.

This is incorrect. The rogue can sneak attack a flat-footed opponent precisely because being flat-footed denies the opponent his Dex bonus to AC. Uncanny dodge allows an opponent to keep his Dex bonus to AC, even while flat-footed. So the rogue cannot sneak attack a flat-footed opponent with uncanny dodge because the opponent is not denied his Dex bonus to AC.

 

[firstborne]

Re: Re: Actually...

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This is incorrect. The rogue can sneak attack a flat-footed opponent precisely because being flat-footed denies the opponent his Dex bonus to AC. Uncanny dodge allows an opponent to keep his Dex bonus to AC, even while flat-footed. So the rogue cannot sneak attack a flat-footed opponent with uncanny dodge because the opponent is not denied his Dex bonus to AC.

From the PHB, p 120:

"Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle. before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the intitiative order), you are flat-footed. You can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed... Barbarians' and rogues' uncanny dodge special ability allows then to avoid losing their Dexterity bonus to AC due to being flat-footed."

p 47:

"Sneak Attack: Basically, anytime the rogue's opponent would be denied his Dexterity bonus to AC... the rogue's attack deals extra damage."

p 48:

"Uncanny Dodge: ...she retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) regardless of being caught flat-footed..."

Nowhere does it state that having the Uncanny Dodge class ability prevents you from being caught flat-footed; indeed, the evidence seems to point to the opposite being true. In short, being flat-footed is a state of awareness, not an actual physical condition.

 

[Pielorinho]

Firstborne, you give very convincing quotes - except that they're convincing on the side of "Uncanny dodge prevents a rogue from sneak-attacking you when you're flatfooted."

Here's the argument:
1) Flatfooted opponents normally lose their dex bonus.
2) Rogues can normally sneak-attack folks who have lost their dex bonus.
3) Therefore, rogues can normally sneak-attack folks who are flatfooted.
4) Folks with uncanny dodge don't lose their dex bonus when flatfooted.
5) Therefore, rogues cannot normally sneak-attack folks with uncanny dodge even if they're flatfooted.

You may be focusing on the word "would" in the quote "Sneak Attack: Basically, anytime the rogue's opponent would be denied his Dexterity bonus to AC... the rogue's attack deals extra damage." You'll need to do some digging to show that that word applies to your argument.

I believe the word "would" is in place because low-Dex opponents don't have a dexterity bonus to their AC and consequently are never denied a dex bonus to AC. However, in some situations, they would[/b] be denied a bonus if they had one; in those situations, a rogue may sneak-attack them, even though they haven't actually been denied their dex bonus.

Daniel

[Edit: fixed wording of stepped arguments above. "Normally" means "naturally, there are some other conditions that allow a rogue to sneak-attack an opponent regardless of loss of dex modifier, and there are other conditions that deny a rogue's ability to sneak attack regardless of loss of dex modifier, but we're not gonna talk about those, m'kay?"]

 

[Dr. Zoom]

Exactly. The rogue can sneak attack when someone would be denied their Dex bonus to AC, whether or not they have a Dex bonus. The "would" does not mean whether they retain the bonus or not. If they retain the bonus (in this case, due to having the uncanny dodge ability), the rogue cannot make a sneak attack.

For example, a fighter with a Dex of 10 has no Dex bonus to AC. When flat-footed, he would be denied his Dex bonus to AC, even though he has no Dex bonus to AC, so he can be sneak attacked by a rogue. A barbarian with uncanny dodge with the same Dex of 10 is not denied his Dex bonus to AC while flat-footed, even though he has no actual Dex bonus to AC, so he cannot be sneak attacked by the rogue.

 

[firstborne]

Fair enough; I'll concede the point. Well played.