D&D 4E Rumor control: Lucca 4e seminar report inaccuracies

For a D20 Logo to have any meaning, you need some kind of quality control, both on the fluff and the crunch.

It works in other markets - Video Consoles, the "Runs On/Designed For Windows XP/Vista" Logos.

The question is: Can it work for WotC?
1)
If there are a lot of D20 Logos / "Compatible with D&D 4th edition" Logos, this certainly increases the amount of people that will pick up the Core rulebooks. That's akin to people buying a Playstation 3 or Windows Vista because there's a lot of software for it.
But: WotC produces its own supplements, and also wants to sell them. This can be counter-productive (though that is not a given).

2) How much does Quality Control cost, and who can pay for it?
Example:
The Vista Logo Certification costs ~1.000 $ for a single test run according the the Logo guidelines/Test Cases. If you fail, you need to test again. The development work to get there takes several days or even weeks (for a single developer), and a single, thorough test run will take 1-2 days.
Developing Quality Guidelines will cost money for WotC no matter what they do. Conducting the control itself also costs money. This part can be handled by a fee, but how much will it be, and how much can publishers pay? How much more money will they make when using the D20 Logo instead of the OGL?

3) How much will Quality & Compatibility Guidelines limit the creativity of a product?
If every d20 Logo is 100 % compatible but only 10 % creative due to the limitations, they Logo will not be worth much in the eyes of the audience.
 

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Henrix

Explorer
I don't think WotC is interested in a license that makes them in any way responsible for other's products.
The legalities involved would be horrendous.

Nor do I think most small independent publishers are interested in a license that forces them to wait for approval by WotC, delaying their product for 2d6 months (not to mention costing them hard-earned cash they don't have).


What we need is something like the d20 license - as long as you comply with these strictures you are allowed to say that this is a 'D&D4 compatible' product, put a snazzy stamp on the cover and put it on the same shelf as the other 'D&D4 compatible' stuff.
 

tenkar

Old School Blogger
Henrix said:
What we need is something like the d20 license - as long as you comply with these strictures you are allowed to say that this is a 'D&D4 compatible' product, put a snazzy stamp on the cover and put it on the same shelf as the other 'D&D4 compatible' stuff.

The problem is WotC doesn't want to endorse any such license. If they do issue such a license they run the appearance of endorsing said products.

There have been some huge stinkers bearing the D20 logo... restrictions and guidelines would not have prevented the crap from hitting the fan... the "fluff" was fluffed like cotton candy but not offensive or obscene and the "crunch" was garbage. Production quality was high on the outside... the inside stretched pages by increasing font size and widening the margins.

The only way to prevent items bearing the D20 logo (or something similar) from hitting the market in the state I described above is review them before publication.

In any case, I'd rather they spend time right now finalizing the rules of the new edition and getting the new SRD out to publishers. Trying to add a viable method of using a D20 logo on 3rd party products and ensure those products meet a minimum quality level is not something WotC needs added to their already overflowing plate ;)
 
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Najo

First Post
Henrix said:
What we need is something like the d20 license - as long as you comply with these strictures you are allowed to say that this is a 'D&D4 compatible' product, put a snazzy stamp on the cover and put it on the same shelf as the other 'D&D4 compatible' stuff.

This is all I am saying. Create some guidelines and give developer material to those publishers who pay to be compatible and get the d20 logo, and then players know that is what the d20 logo stands for, certain quality standards were followed to get that logo. make it mean something both for fluffy and crunch.

WOTC doesn't have to read every product, or approve it or whatever. Just give the studios the full tools to make it right and hold them to certain minimum standards. Then let WOTC make core materials and their support materials will still sell first and foremost because its WOTC and done with WOTC's level of official porfessionalism. As long as WOTC puts out good material, it will sell.
 

BSF

Explorer
The only thing that an authorized logo solves is laziness. Laziness on the part of retailers and laziness on the part of end customers.

In itself, that isn't a bad thing. That is what marketing is all about, after all. Companies with a strong brand want everybody in the channel to look at their product and associate it with quality and a product you *have to* buy right now!

The D20 logo no longer has an intrinsic value with part of the channel. Indeed, most of the channel doesn't place a lot of value on the D20 logo. As an end customer, the D20 logo is just a quick marker that means I *might* be interested in a product. But I will still need to look at the book itself with a critical eye to be sure it meets my needs, seems to be soundly designed, and will be something I am willing to spend money on. I am far more likely to spend some time assessing the book based on the writers, the publisher, and the actual content. I will spend time looking for the book based on reviews or interactions with people I know (like the EN World community).

But that is because I am not a lazy customer. I feel no moral obligation to support poorly run businesses (whether that is the LGS, a wonky publisher, the restaurant down the street, or whatever) so I look for well run businesses.

But that does not help excellent third party publishers bring in new customers! Every new customer needs a starting place. Years ago, that was the Friendly, Local Gaming Store. The FLGS is an endangered resource these days. I know they are out there, but I rarely see them myself. So how do excellent third party publishers get through the distribution channel so that a customer can see the product, feel the product, and buy the product? The D20 logo has been poisoned by a once bitten, twice shy mentality. WotC isn't planning to continue to license the logo out and I honestly can't blame them. At this point the D20 logo doesn't hurt established publishers and doesn't really help new publishers.

Established publishers have already proven themselves with great products and the D20 logo is just a mark on the book that lets customers know to pull it off the shelf. Well, and as Wulf points out, it lets you make a quick assessment on whether the product will be somewhat useful for your campaign - without any statement of quality. The point is that the people buying third party products from established publishers will probably keep doing it whether there is a D20 logo or not.

New publishers pop up and proudly put the D20 logo on their book only to have themselves shunned by the distribution channel. Their books never get in front of customers because they never make it to store shelves. These might be great products, or they might be crap, but nobody ever knows because they never even look at the product itself. They just think "another company I never heard of and they are just making a crappy D&D knock off product."

It is laziness from the channel. Everyone wanted the D20 logo to mean "buy me" from the get go. So they bought a bunch of D20 product which the customers soon weeded out as crap and left on the shelves. So the businesses looked at shelf feet of cash flow that wasn't flowing and decided that the D20 logo must mean "crappy, non-selling stuff." Then they started getting customers coming in and saying "where are your [insert publisher of choice here] products?" Then the businesses started paying slightly more attention and only bought stuff their customers were asking for. Or in some cases, they took the route that one of my LGSs apparently took. "We can special order that for you. We can get it within 2 weeks." Again, that means product is moving out of the distribution channel in 1's and 2's, so a distributor will stop stocking it.

It is a crappy situation. As customers we keep demanding a special logo that tells us that a product is both compatible and worth buying. How is WotC supposed to do that? Are they supposed to police the entire channel? That is a no-win prospect for them. What criteria should they use to determine quality? Content? Design stability? How much time should they devote to manage the business of everybody else rather than their own business? How much flak will they catch when they reject a product that somebody else thought was good? C'mon people, the way that works is if you go with a franchise model and WotC has the ability to yank your (expensive) franchise license. Wait, WotC does have that as an option. Do you want every third party publisher to have that as a hurdle to beginning to publish?

I don't want that, and neither do most of us. There is no value to WotC to demand a quality threshold. If they do that, the implication is that they are holding publishers to that threshold. As soon as one person disagrees, the house of cards is in danger. What if somebody wants to seek recourse through litigation? How much time and money will be tied up with WotC trying to defend their threshold requirements? That just hurts the hobby in general.

We either have a closed development team (there is no OGL and there are no compatible third party products) or we have an open development team and market pressures weed out the bad products. WotC appears to be moving more toward the latter. Yes, established companies do have an advantage. But they earned that advantage by establishing themselves as good companies to buy product from. The only thing I feel bad about are the good companies that got burned by the way the D20 market played out. Some of them had excellent products in the channel at the wrong time and they never got paid, so they had to close business - or at least severely curtail development.

I'm ranting aren't I? I apologize for that. But the simple fact is that there isn't a perfect solution. A lot of the options that are available to bigger markets aren't viable in our hobby market. Stop treating any endorsed logo as a mark of quality. Treat it as compatability and do the research/analysis on your own. If you are inclined, tell the buyers at your LGS what is good and what is bad. Good products will still be out there. Look for them and support the companies that produce things you like.
 

Najo

First Post
I find that the vocal minority can really make something into a bigger issue than it is. There is no need to take and have WOTC police a tighter d20 logo program. All they need to do is take the designer guidelines and developer notes, put it in a package and charge a liscensing fee to the 3rd party publishers who want a d20 logo. Then the D20 logo = my product had the same resources guiding is game developers that WOTC had. Therefore it is more likely to be better than those without this logo on it.

Regardless of talking about lazy retailers, distributors or customers, logos are used to create brand recognition and communicate to customers a method of sorting through products quickly. Instead of walking up to a wall of mixed product and having to read every one, I could choose to only look at the ones with d20 logos. By redefing the criteria needed to get that logo, you are communicating to the customers to give it another shot.

Besides, it is not laziness on the retailer or distributor when they are having to place their own money week after week onto products that they have no clue whether or not they are going to be any good. Those products that retailers ordered to give selection to their customers that are now sitting there, those retailers ate that...it was money lost. Especially the d20 stuff that will never sell. So, who can blame a retailer or distributor for being cautious or special ordering? They want to stay in business.

The average customer has limited time as well. The d20 logo was trusted in the beginning. I am just saying rebuild that trust. Put something into the requirements that make the d20 publisher have to pay attention to the details and build the game mechanics in the book right.

A perfect example of this, is when White Wolf launched their Creature Collection ahead of the 3.0 Monster Manual. White wolf's book was the first monster book to market. It sold like crazy. But, once people got used to the game systems and more source material came out, it turned out that White Wolf didn't follow the SRD or any true monster mechanics at the time, they basically made the monster profiles up. So the monsters had extra feats, skill points, wrong hit dice, and powers that weren't written properly. This is the sort of thing that would have been avoided with developer kits and game mechanic standards. My example is extreme, but it makes my point.

This is all that needs to happen:

Publishers can either publish as OGL or D20 TM. As OGL it is business as usually. As D20 TM, they pay a reasonable fee and then agree that their product:

* Meets the content decency standards (i.e. no real world religion, no sex, etc)
* Does not include how to generate ability scores or use experience to level a character.
* That the writers/ game designers/ developers made use of the official design document kit giving to them and made sure that they use all of the same materials WOTC uses to make new rules. This is extremely important, more so than many realize.

In turn, the publisher gets to put on the product:

* The D20 logo (or whatever logo WOTC uses to show it is official)
* The 'requires the use of the Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition Player's Handbook' or whatever other compatiblity langauge WOTC wants to allow.
* Limited D&D Trade Dress. This would be graphic design elements that tie in with the logo, allow the publisher to use some, none or all of a selection of style elements made for the 3rd party D&D product lines. These become visual cues that the products are part of the new D20 logo.

I would even go further myself, and offer the whole "official wotc approved product" logo, like what Kingdoms of Kalamar had. These products pay a royalty fee on top of their liscense fee. The royalty fee does not give WOTC rights to any IP of the company, just a percentage of sales out to a certain number of copies. What official products get are:

* WOTC editor and developers to smooth the product over.
* The ability to put the Dungeons and Dragons logo on the product in a non-prominment way that doesn't detract from official WOTC products.
* Tie-in with official D&D products instead of the SRD, that way those products could reference new products that aren't in the SRD.

I say WOTC goes for it and treats D&D like a console game system. They can make their own high quality products (like Nintendo does with Mario, Zelda or Metroid) and then they can end up getting some really good, creative teams in their from other companies (like console third party companies). The only way to make that happen is provide developer packages like what I am talking about or create a legal deal with each and every company on a one on one basis, and that second option is more expensive.

The only other option is just go here is the OGL, go for it. And you will end up with 3.0 part two. I guarantee. It is just a huge pile of good, ok and bad companies thrown together and customers having to wade through it. Even the good copanies can benefit from designer guidelines and in house design documents.

In fact, I would bet that Piazo did have access to some or all of those documents while they were working on Dragon and Dungeon, and that is the reason their mechanics are as tight as they are.
 

tenkar

Old School Blogger
Najo said:
I say WOTC goes for it and treats D&D like a console game system. They can make their own high quality products (like Nintendo does with Mario, Zelda or Metroid) and then they can end up getting some really good, creative teams in their from other companies (like console third party companies). The only way to make that happen is provide developer packages like what I am talking about or create a legal deal with each and every company on a one on one basis, and that second option is more expensive.

The only other option is just go here is the OGL, go for it. And you will end up with 3.0 part two. I guarantee. It is just a huge pile of good, ok and bad companies thrown together and customers having to wade through it. Even the good copanies can benefit from designer guidelines and in house design documents.

Console games in 2004 were a $9.9 Billion dollar industry. RPG sales were in the range of $32 to $67 million in 2003 (the industry is harder to track then console cames). RPGs are pennies on the dollar in comparison. They don't compare very well, and suggesting that WotC model itself on the console industry doesn't stand up to the numbers.

WotC can't even get a basic SRD out to publishers to ensure 3rd party publishers can get their releases out for the release of 4e. Expecting an "official design document kit" to get into publishers hands is overly optimistic to put it lightly. In any case, a "official design document kit" does not ensure quality and does nothing to address the garbage that was shoveled with a "D20" logo on it in the past.

If some of the major 3rd party publishers could get together and agree on their own logo to indicate compatibility with 4ed you would have a viable solution without WotC having to take any responsibility... that is the real issue here. As much as some posters want WotC to take responsibility for 3rd party products or have them add legitimacy to those products by supplying an official logo for them to use, the reality is WotC does not want that.
 

BSF

Explorer
Najo said:
Besides, it is not laziness on the retailer or distributor when they are having to place their own money week after week onto products that they have no clue whether or not they are going to be any good. Those products that retailers ordered to give selection to their customers that are now sitting there, those retailers ate that...it was money lost. Especially the d20 stuff that will never sell. So, who can blame a retailer or distributor for being cautious or special ordering? They want to stay in business.

It is a niche hobby. If you want to sell to me you should at least be familiar with the game. It is laziness to buy a product and _hope_ it sells without any idea of why it should sell to any given segment of the customer base. Other businesses actually pay attention to their market, pay attention to sales numbers, read the descriptions of the product, and do what they can to make informed decisions. The businesses that cannot do this basic effort often go out of business.

We aren't even talking about that much effort. There are well run game stores out there. But there are a lot of game stores where the owner started as a gamer that loves games and is hoping that enthusiasm is enough to keep her in business. I am talking about a lack of basic things - greeting the customer that walks in the door, watching your cash flow, researching your market and trying to sell to that market. Owning any business requires a lot of hard work. Game stores are no exception. Being able to judge good product and bad product is part of that process.

You are saying it isn't the retailers fault that they buy crummy product and put it on the shelves? I am saying that the retailers have an even higher motivation to avoid buying crummy products than most consumers. If we buy one bad book, we avoid buying another one like it. If a retailer buys one box of bad books, she might only sell one book from that box.

This is all that needs to happen:

Publishers can either publish as OGL or D20 TM. As OGL it is business as usually. As D20 TM, they pay a reasonable fee and then agree that their product:

* Meets the content decency standards (i.e. no real world religion, no sex, etc)
* Does not include how to generate ability scores or use experience to level a character.
* That the writers/ game designers/ developers made use of the official design document kit giving to them and made sure that they use all of the same materials WOTC uses to make new rules. This is extremely important, more so than many realize.

All of which do nothing to address quality of product. During the roll out of 3.X, it would seem that even WotC didn't have such a kit for internal use. I wish I could remember the link, but I distinctly remember a discussion between the designers where one designer created a new class and didn't know that the original designers had a formula for saving throws. At the time, it wasn't documented so that everyone at WotC could find that information.

Maybe the 4E team has those resources, maybe they don't. Such documentation seems standard in some industries and backgrounds, I know. But that documentation takes time away from design and development.

Let's assume that the documentation does exist, and that WotC would be willing to part with it for a price that most third party publishers might pay. The documentation would still be constantly changing. Game design has solid mechanical principles behind it, especially for a system such as D20. But game design is much more an art. At some point, you still look at a new idea and say - I think this will work without being too abusable or too overpowered, but I still could be wrong.

Quality is still not assured, even with a documented methodology.


In turn, the publisher gets to put on the product:

* The D20 logo (or whatever logo WOTC uses to show it is official)
* The 'requires the use of the Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition Player's Handbook' or whatever other compatiblity langauge WOTC wants to allow.
* Limited D&D Trade Dress. This would be graphic design elements that tie in with the logo, allow the publisher to use some, none or all of a selection of style elements made for the 3rd party D&D product lines. These become visual cues that the products are part of the new D20 logo.

WotC would be insane to offer some of that in our litigious society.
I say WOTC goes for it and treats D&D like a console game system. They can make their own high quality products (like Nintendo does with Mario, Zelda or Metroid) and then they can end up getting some really good, creative teams in their from other companies (like console third party companies). The only way to make that happen is provide developer packages like what I am talking about or create a legal deal with each and every company on a one on one basis, and that second option is more expensive.

See Tenkar's statements about sales numbers. Pen and paper RPGs are less than pennies on the dollar in comparison. We are still a small, niche hobby. WotC doesn't have the resources to even try this type of model out. For third parties, it would make the publishing process too onerous. Effectively, it would cut out the D20 logo branding at all. All WotC is doing is cutting out the effort to achieve the same results.

In fact, I would bet that Piazo did have access to some or all of those documents while they were working on Dragon and Dungeon, and that is the reason their mechanics are as tight as they are.

Why discount the idea that Paizo is staffed with experienced game designers? As an alternative, look at Mike Mearls. He started as a freelancer who showed he was creative, responsible, and could make products that work. He worked his way up the rungs, gaining experience until he was able to get a job at WotC. Other companies design product with 'tight mechanics' and did so without any design kit in place. Sure, it would be a great thing to have! Don't think that for a moment I am discounting the idea that a kit would be nice to have. I'm just saying it wouldn't assure quality and wouldn't create any benefit for WotC to provide it.
 

So Scott, does this mean we can now make all sorts of guesses about 4e and spread them through the rumour mill, and you'll come on here and debunk all the ones that aren't true?

Cos you know, that kinda sounds like fun... ;)
 

Najo

First Post
tenkar said:
Console games in 2004 were a $9.9 Billion dollar industry. RPG sales were in the range of $32 to $67 million in 2003 (the industry is harder to track then console cames). RPGs are pennies on the dollar in comparison. They don't compare very well, and suggesting that WotC model itself on the console industry doesn't stand up to the numbers.

WotC can't even get a basic SRD out to publishers to ensure 3rd party publishers can get their releases out for the release of 4e. Expecting an "official design document kit" to get into publishers hands is overly optimistic to put it lightly. In any case, a "official design document kit" does not ensure quality and does nothing to address the garbage that was shoveled with a "D20" logo on it in the past.

If some of the major 3rd party publishers could get together and agree on their own logo to indicate compatibility with 4ed you would have a viable solution without WotC having to take any responsibility... that is the real issue here. As much as some posters want WotC to take responsibility for 3rd party products or have them add legitimacy to those products by supplying an official logo for them to use, the reality is WotC does not want that.

IN 2006 video games are a 12 billlion dollar industry. RPG sales for D&D are closer to 15-17 million and then the rest of the indusrty is 3-5 million. Magic the Gathering makes up 153 million while Games Workshop pulls in 140-150 million. Wizards of the Coast keeps D&D around because they make money liscensing it to video game companies.

WOTC is choosing to not get a kit out. The lawyers are the ones who write the OGL/ D20 documents, not the game designers. Regardless of what you believe, WOTC uses a design kit in house. It exists now. The developers are under NDAs not to reveal it. Since 3.0 those documents exist, even more so with 3.5 and they do update as time goes on. Every industry professional who has worked with WOTC can confirm these documents exist. The documents don't ensure that garbage doesn't get made, it helps the designer avoid making errors and keep in mind considerations about the game system that are easy to overlook. They bring together the key areas of the mechanics you need to keep in mind when building a class, skill, feat, magic item, monster, etc. Some of these documents have "slipped" through in the areas of books when designers go behind the scenes, the spell creation in Tome and Blood for 3.0 is a good example of this, as is the how to design a feat and how to design a prestie class articles that found their way into Dragon magazine.

Most of your argument is just for argument sake. A designer kit being offered to 3rd party would improve a 3rd party publishers ability to make better material. WOTC is likely not wanting to share those documents as it makes their products better than the 3rd party publishers.
 

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