Running Mass Combat

[TerraDave]

With no grid or battlemap, ala most mini based wargames. Just using a ruler--which works fine (though I have long used a battle map for tactical combat).

Terrain features where improvised: green construction paper for forest, brown for hill...

 

[Azgulor]

Ok, between Grim Tales mass combat rules, Fields of Blood, Mini Handbook, Heroes of Battle, Cry Havoc, Free Companies (Conan mass combat) and any other system you can think of, what is the best way to run big battles? What combination of the above has worked for you? I've tried a few of the above, and while i like the GT Battle Rating calculator, I found myself still having to add in ad hoc rules. I don't want to have an incredibly number crunching heavy game, i want it more dynamic but still strategic where the players have a lot of say in what happens. Is there a system that grants special abilities to units as a whole, sort of like pseudo feats for a group?

I use Fields of Blood as my primary mass combat source. The mechanics are extrapolated from the d20 core combat mechanic, so learning it was a breeze. Plus, there's a decent mix of tactical options available and rules for terrain, fortifications, etc.

However, I also utilize elements from Mongoose's Conan: Free Companies: narrative combat if the PCs are too far removed from the front lines and "zooming" in to normal combat (i.e. PC-view) at key moments or when the the situation warrants. For example, if each PC is commanding a squad/unit of men, I'd likely stay at the unit tactical level ala FoB. If all of the PCs are within the same squad/unit, I'd "zoom" in on the PCs as appropriate. If I remember correctly, 1 FoB turn = 10 d20 turns.

As an example:
Opening rounds - narrative combat to handle unit movement. Preliminary clashes on the front lines while the PC's unit attempts to flank.
Combat ensues with the PC's unit:
FoB Round 1: Resolve at tactical level for units other than the PCs'
d20 Round 1-10: Resolve combat normally
Fob Round 2: Resolve at tactical level for units other than PC's
d20 Round 11-20: Resolve combat normally
Etc.

It's worked out to be pretty fluid and keeps the mass combat from spending too much time at the Strategic-view.

Azgulor

 

[Nebulous]

I really like Free Companies, i own that too. I think the ultimate system for me will end up being a hodge podge of everything that's out there.

 

[Steel_Wind]

Thank you for all the replies, this is good stuff. I haven't looked close enough at Heroes of Battle but i think it warrants a closer inspection. Just curious, for those of you who have maintained mass combat scenarios with miniatures, how do you set up the battleboard? I have a simple 1" grid map with plastic overlay, and i plunked some fake trees on it, drew in the contours of a hill and called it a day. IDEALLY, i wanted a full color terrain map laid out to 1' scale, with forests, rivers, grassy plain, etc. But again, that is getting beyond the scope of typical DnD and into full fledged wargaming.

I use Digital Map Projection. It is - far and away - the most adaptable and best looking table top map you can get.

There is a rather epic thread with tons of pics on the subject that was on the front page of EnWorld and even was covered on Slashdot's home page at one point.

The thread is here: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=122099&page=1&pp=40

 

[Nebulous]

Oh Lord, you use the digital projection? Yeah, i saw that link a while back and was pleasantly impressed. I mean, it was really great. I went home that day and fiddled in photoshop to recreate maps in the same scale. It wasn't too hard to do, i just don't have a projector. If i did, then creating tabletop battlegrounds would not only be easy, (well, not impossible i should say, it's not exactly easy) but they'd be fantastic. I looked into the projectors but they were way out of my price range.

 

[Steel_Wind]

<threadjack> It all depends really.

What's your price range?

I picked up a 1024x768 (XGA) LCD projector - it was a demo model of a T60MU with a more or less new lamp. I got it off of ebay for $480 USD last month. I am VERY pleased with this projector. I got it as a backup for the one we have for gaming (an 800x600 DLP).

For a gaming group of five people, that's less than a $100. A little less than the price of the core rules per person. Maybe not everyone is in a stable gaming group that they would feel comfortable all chipping in on a projector - but a LOT of people on EnWorld have to be in a similar position as my group is and are able to do so if sufficiently motivated.

For a large chunk of Enworld gamers - I think the cost of acquiring a projector is more a matter of will than is is a matter of means. (For those who are still stuck in school and scraping for Kraft Dinner money - well that's a different matter.)

I'm using my new LCD projector for Home Theatre and writing up a Home Theatre - On the cheap feature for the Digital Projection guide.
</threadjack>

 

[iwatt]

Threadjack must end now!!

At $1.95 for the entire Mass Combat system, I think it's the best system out there.

Wulf, I got your pdf, and I must say that I like it. It's simple and using EL is of course logical. Like in many things it's necessary for someone to see it the first time to make the simple solution obvious to everybody else. Congrats.

Now for some questions:

I haven't bought Grim Tales , so I don't know if you've attacked these points before:

1) What are the effects on EL for well equipped units?

2) What combat scale do you recomend (i.e unit size doesn't become to unwieldy for Command Checks.)

3) For combats with different sized creatures: why not use same size counters but large creatures have 1/4 creatures per unit than medium creatures? Maybe this would make the units more balanced when base CR of dedicated units are to different?

4) What are the effects of conditional modifiers like a Dwarfs +4 to AC against giants.

5) You mention :

Any unit may make a movement action to turn in place,
choosing any facing, and maintain formation.

but I don't see the effects of facing in your rules. I guess yo mean that units can only attack those they're facing? do they still get a counter-attack if not facing the attacking unit? Is there flanking? This actually is the most confusing part for me and I rather hear from you before delving into rules tinkering.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Arrrgh! Had a huge reply written and lost it. You may now find my answers more brief.

1) What are the effects on EL for well equipped units?

Most likely, no effect-- unless they are very well equipped:

A PC's gear is worth 0.2 CR per character level.

An NPC's gear is worth 0.125 CR per character level.

The value amounts for "Wealth by Level" are available in the DMG.

EDIT: I actually used this function to set some of the CR/EL/BR ratings of the units that are available to the PCs in Slavelords of Cydonia. It's a simple thing to knock .2 CR off a unit if they are under-equipped, or add .2 CR if they are well-equipped, and then recalculate the Battle Rating. Obviously, it has a greater effect on low-CR combatants than high-CR combatants (ie, relative to what percentage of the total CR is represented by 0.2 CR).

EDIT: Of course, if you had a 10th level character stripped naked and forced to fight, that 0.2 CR per character level would knock a full 2 CR off his total.

EDIT: But as a general rule, if your "conscripts" have leather armor and a club, and your "elite footmen" have a chain shirt and a longsword, it's not going to make a difference.

2) What combat scale do you recomend (i.e unit size doesn't become to unwieldy for Command Checks.)

Unit size should be set to the same size as the smallest unit involved in the battle (generally speaking).

3) For combats with different sized creatures: why not use same size counters but large creatures have 1/4 creatures per unit than medium creatures? Maybe this would make the units more balanced when base CR of dedicated units are to different?

This was one of the longer answers I lost. I will sum up: If you want to do it, you're on your own. A good deal of mathematical R&D went into the rules that I wrote, which assume that most folks will use miniatures or counters that are properly scaled to size.

4) What are the effects of conditional modifiers like a Dwarfs +4 to AC against giants.

No effect. A dwarf's bonus vs. giants is already included in his CR. You should strive to avoid accounting for ANY function of combat that is inherent to the creature, as opposed to being a function of terrain or tactical position.

5) I don't see the effects of facing in your rules. I guess yo mean that units can only attack those they're facing? do they still get a counter-attack if not facing the attacking unit? Is there flanking? This actually is the most confusing part for me and I rather hear from you before delving into rules tinkering.

Read the section Battle Actions: Move again. It's all there. To summarize, facing affects movement.

Flanking is not accounted for per se, but it is accounted for. I'll refer you back to the first long Q&A post of mine in this thread, page 1.

Wulf

 

[iwatt]

EDIT: But as a general rule, if your "conscripts" have leather armor and a club, and your "elite footmen" have a chain shirt and a longsword, it's not going to make a difference.

Yep, I did some simulations using extra equipment and you're right, It's really not that relevant. I was asking since I'm running a dwarf legions v/s orc horde battle in the near future, and wanted to include the effect of well equipped troops. The +.2 and +.125 feature will help to represent it. Thanks.

Anyhow, what I noticed from your system is that it stays true to the aphorism: "Quantity has a quality all of it's own".

2) What combat scale do you recomend (i.e unit size doesn't become to unwieldy for Command Checks.)

What I meant is how do "you" approach the decision of unit size. Directly out of the size of the conflict (i.e 15000 v/s 20000) and you don't want any side with more than (let's say) 20 units will lead to unit sizes of 100 individuals. This is not an easy unit o manage in combat. I want to avoid combats that bog down because everybody has got to take 10 actions to finally get there units back in formation. For this I think you need adequate leaders. For example:

A Great unit leader (Cha 16 let's say) with a Superior Commander (+1 synergy) during a siege (+2 synergy from Knowledge engineering), a +2 synergy (from Knowledge Tactics) and +2 synergy from Intimidate (he's good at bullying troops) and the reputation of a great captain (+4 from reputation check) will have a command check of:

+3 (Cha) +1 (Leader) + 2 (Eng) + 2 (Tact) + 2 (Bully) +4 (rep) = +14

this guy can easily handle units of around 150 individuals.

while a leader with regular Cha and little skill modifiers will have a +2 or +3 check at most. This guy is better off with a 5 - 10 individual platoon.

So basically what I'm asking is how do "you" set up the battles (I'm asking since you have the benefit of experience):

a) Army size---> #units. ----->Average Leader Ability.

or

b) Army size---> Average Leader ability---> unit size-----> #units.

No effect. A dwarf's bonus vs. giants is already included in his CR. You should strive to avoid accounting for ANY function of combat that is inherent to the creature, as opposed to being a function of terrain or tactical position.

Ok, thanks.

I'm still giving those attacking from higher ground their +1 to attack though

A good deal of mathematical R&D went into the rules that I wrote, which assume that most folks will use miniatures or counters that are properly scaled to size.

I asked this more from the game design point of view. I was wondering if it had to do with the fact that the 2x2 for large is already widely accepted and you decided to work within the framework. I will bow down to your playtesting since excessive rules tinkering has blown up in my face in the past.

Read the section Battle Actions: Move again. It's all there. To summarize, facing affects movement.
Flanking is not accounted for per se, but it is accounted for. I'll refer you back to the first long Q&A post of mine in this thread, page 1.

Ok, once again I see were you're coming from. By the way, it was that post that got me interested in the first place.

Finally, by the way I think you've answered this in another thread :

How do you handle cavalry units. Suppose I'm dealing with footman units of 20 individuals (medium counter). Is a cavalry unit (large counter) composed of: 10 riders + 10 horses or is it 20 riders + 20 horses ? Sorry if this question is plain stupid but I'm having a very long day

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

What I meant is how do "you" approach the decision of unit size.

A combination of:

(a) what's the smallest unit involved

and

(b) what looks good.

Also remember, there's no reason that you can't form detachments or join up in the middle of the battle. If you need another counter to maneuver out or something, make a Command check and split the unit.

This guy can easily handle units of around 150 individuals... while a leader with regular Cha and little skill modifiers will have a +2 or +3 check at most. This guy is better off with a 5 - 10 individual platoon.

I think you'll find that the rules support the advantageous concept of chain of command.

I'm still giving those attacking from higher ground their +1 to attack though.

Whether or not that makes sense is entirely subject to the map scale. It would be unusual in the extreme for a unit of 100 men to ALL have the advantage of higher ground against the 100 men they are fighting. The swirl of combat and the scale of the map make a universal advantage like that unlikely.

Might make sense for ranged attacks, though, or as a bonus in melee against a unit defending the high ground against a unit making an attack (or, especially, a charge) onto high ground, for the first round only.

And of course, I'm attracted to anything that makes the battle more tactically interesting.

How do you handle cavalry units. Suppose I'm dealing with footman units of 20 individuals (medium counter). Is a cavalry unit (large counter) composed of: 10 riders + 10 horses or is it 20 riders + 20 horses ? Sorry if this question is plain stupid but I'm having a very long day

No, it's not stupid; in fact it stumped me for a second.

A cavalry unit of 20 would be 20 riders and 20 mounts; the unit size is 20, but for purposes of the BR you want to add the CR of all 20 riders and all 20 mounts. (The rider and his mount move, act, give and receive Command checks and morale as a single unit; hence the unit size is 20, not 40.)