Running Mass Combat

[S'mon]

War Machine rules have some big holes. Army of 8st level characters are slightly better than 1st level characters. But army of 9th level characters (+200 BR) are much better than 8th level. That leads to high level (9+) small units that are almost unbeatable.

Thunhus

Like I said, with War Machine the GM needs to set the Basic Force Ratings & Battle Ratings with common sense & judgement. Then the actual combat resolution is a doddle. Here's my detailed War Machine Basic Force Rating system for 3e - I took the best bits from the OD&D Rule's Quick Force Rating system as well as the detailed system:

War Machine 3e
Detailed System:

Basic Force Rating
Force Leader's Leadership score (Level+CHA)
+ Average Officer Level (1 Officer/40 troops)
+ (Average Troop Level) x10
+1/Victory in past 10 years
-1/Rout in past 10 years
+ Training Factor: Green - 10 Trained - 15 Regular - 20 Veteran - 25 Elite - 30
(eg Commoners are probably Green, Experts probably Trained, while Warriors are Regular or Veteran, & PC-Class troops are usually Elite)

Weapon:
+ the maximum damage of the most common weapon
+5 if weapon is masterwork
+5 if second weapon of equal quality

Armour: + (AC-10) for most common armour

= Basic Force Rating

Then add factors as normal to get Battle Rating.

Quick Battle Rating - especially for monstrous forces.

Average Troop CR - for most armies this will be 1 or 2 ranks (+15 or +30) higher than the CR of the weakest or most common troops, eg if the typical troops are CR 1/2 (eg orcs) the average army CR for an orc army will usually be 2/3 or 1.
The table is based around the "average force" - eg human regulars - being BR 100. Taking the CR of the weakest troops and adding on the leader's Leadership and the average Officer level also gives reasonable results - eg Orcs CR 1/2 with 5th level officers and a leader with Leadership 10 would have BR 85, TC Fair.

Average CR Battle Rating Troop Class
1/8 10 Untrained
1/6 25 Untrained
1/4 40 Poor
1/3 55 Below Average
1/2 70 Below Average
2/3 85 Fair
1 100 Average
1.5 115 Average
2 130 Good
3 145 Good
4 160 Excellent
5 175 Excellent
6 190 Elite
+1 +15 Elite

 

[S'mon]

War Machine rules have some big holes. Army of 8st level characters are slightly better than 1st level characters. But army of 9th level characters (+200 BR) are much better than 8th level. That leads to high level (9+) small units that are almost unbeatable.

Thunhus

For small units vs large units, I allow the small unit to engage at most 8 times their own number in one battle round (the adjustment for troop ratio table tops out at x8, which seems reasonable). Since the best possible result is 10% casualties winner/100% loser, that means that at most the small unit can kill 80 times their own number before all their troops are dead (50%) or incapacitated (50%). Even with magical healing therefore you can't kill more than 160 times your own number of troops, which seems reasonable to me - even very powerful troops can eventually have their weapons sundered, be grappled & pinned, become exhausted, etc.

 

[Steel_Wind]

Actually, WOTC have already told us that Heroes of Battle precisely WILL NOT have any sort of mass battle system included, which is unfortunate. Outside of a feeble attempt to work mass battles into the the minitures game, WOTC have apparently decided to cede the subject matter to third party publishers.

Ch. 6 - Mass Combat in the Miniature's Handbook is actually nor THAT bad for D&D battles.

There are a lot of people who have slammed it but very few who have tried it. Our group bit the bullet and tried it as it was more streamlined than the systemd presented in Cry Havoc or Fields of Blood.

While it's not perfect - it's actually not that bad. Give it a try first please.

 

[nothing to see here]

Ch. 6 - Mass Combat in the Miniature's Handbook is actually nor THAT bad for D&D battles.

There are a lot of people who have slammed it but very few who have tried it. Our group but the bullet and tried it as it was more streamlined than the systemd presented in Cry Havoc or Fields of Blood.

While it's not perfect - it's actually not that bad. Give it a try first please.

What makes you think we haven't? The mass battle rules, like the minitures rules they're based on are centred around some of the same mechanics as the D&D RPG. It's not the rules that I find objectionable...it's the underlying assumption of the entire WOTC minitures marketing campaign that all gamers are geeks for collectibles and to properly used the rules set we have to buy in (literally) to the collectibles lifestyle.

Fields of Blood also reccomends minitures -- but does not require them. Outside of Wulf's swanky spreadsheet, Grim Tales just requires a pencil, paper, and a good imagination -- which I find appealing far more than slaving over the next "Archfiends of Legend" expansion pack.

 

[Hellefire]

Ah the memories.

I was in...jr. high I guess. Somewhere in the early-mid 80s. And I used to make armies and pit them against each other before and after school. Just play out battles for hours on end. I was never really into strategic battle or historical battles or anything before that. But I liked to run those battles. All by myself .

Aaron

 

[nothing to see here]

Ah the memories.

I was in...jr. high I guess. Somewhere in the early-mid 80s. And I used to make armies and pit them against each other before and after school. Just play out battles for hours on end. I was never really into strategic battle or historical battles or anything before that. But I liked to run those battles. All by myself .

Aaron

Me too...that's a big part of my 'War Machine' nostalgia.

 

[Steel_Wind]

What makes you think we haven't? The mass battle rules, like the minitures rules they're based on are centred around some of the same mechanics as the D&D RPG. It's not the rules that I find objectionable...it's the underlying assumption of the entire WOTC minitures marketing campaign that all gamers are geeks for collectibles and to properly used the rules set we have to buy in (literally) to the collectibles lifestyle.

Fields of Blood also reccomends minitures -- but does not require them. Outside of Wulf's swanky spreadsheet, Grim Tales just requires a pencil, paper, and a good imagination -- which I find appealing far more than slaving over the next "Archfiends of Legend" expansion pack.

So a mass combat system which presupposes the use of miniatures is "feeble" for that reason alone?

An interesting point of view.

 

[Mark]

I think the ideal Mass Combat System would be scalable in both complexity (amount of detail) and depth (as it pertains to size and breakdown of forces), independent of one another, and can also be utilized both with visual aids (miniatures or what-have-you) or in the abstract.

Now, that would be a flexible system and I don't believe I've seen one that completely handles all of those options quite well enough, though a couple probably come close in some areas and less so in others.

Personally, I'm still going over what is available and won't get into specifics but I think it might be possible to create an OGL'd hybrid of a number of currently available systems ith a number of additional innovations, and build a system that meets my above criteria.

Or maybe I'll croak before ever realizing such a dream...

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Fields of Blood also reccomends minitures -- but does not require them. Outside of Wulf's swanky spreadsheet, Grim Tales just requires a pencil, paper, and a good imagination -- which I find appealing far more than slaving over the next "Archfiends of Legend" expansion pack.

Personally, I like Fiery Dragon's counters for mass combat. It's easier for me to imagine a counter as unit than it is to imagine a miniature as a unit, and it's better for me all around to have some kind of visual.

Maybe I'm weird, I dunno.

 

[nothing to see here]

So a mass combat system which presupposes the use of miniatures is "feeble" for that reason alone?

An interesting point of view.

If it's merely a skeletal appendage designed to encourage people to buy into the minitures game proper -- I'd argue 'yes'.

Of course you're certainly entitled to your opinion to the contrary.