Rust Monster Lovin'

[Greg K]

I'll throw my support with those against the 10 minute duration. I saw that and thought the revision had gone too far

 

[The_Gneech]

Did you make your Knowledge (dungeoneering) check?

Okay, if I'm wearing +1 plate, see rust monsters, and know what they are, I run!

Man, I'm gettin' nitpicked to death today.

-The Gneech

 

[Dr_Rictus]

I just don't see the spectre of the "denuded" fighter here. Why would any sensible party let their fighter throw away his armor?

I mean, this is a thing that has a decent chance of being successfully grappled by the party mage.

Nerfing the rust monster just strikes me as a way to suck an interesting tactical problem out of the game.

 

[Greg K]

IMO, I think he's addressing a point I bring up from time to time in internet RPG discussions. A lot of the discussions tend to bring out points like "a really good DM can handle this." Most DMs, in the real world, are average or worse. They aren't necessarily "really good DMs." In design, WotC has to take that into account.

Yet, imo, this does nothing to help those DMs improve their skills. Rather than rewriting everything to protect players from average or worse DMs, how about WOTC begins taking steps to help those DMs improve their skills. For example, what about using sidebars that teach DMs about the the potential pitfalls of using certain monsters by providing advice and consideration regarding the use of said monster. Hopefully, by the time you repeat similar advice for "screw the player" monsters (e.g., rust monsters and disenchanters), the DM learns that you limit their use for certain situations/effects and need to have planned ahead for the consequences (or at least realize the potential consequences).

 

[stevelabny]

unless the rust monster is in the first room a new player EVER enters in a dungeon...

they will have backup weapons.

cuz every new player knows the basics

1> kill things

2> take their stuff

and any kobold, goblin, orc ,etc will have a weapon.

 

[Hussar]

Just on the point of death vs losing your equipment.

If my PC dies, it takes about an hour at the outside to create a new PC, and, as an added bonus, he comes fully equiped.

If my PC gets his armor and sword shredded by the rust monster, it will take several sessions, probably 8-10 hours of real time to regain my equipment.

If I get turned to stone, feebleminded, whatever, by the time we face creatures that can do this, we likely have the counters. 30 seconds of real time to fix the problem. I get to sit out one encounter. No big problem.

I have a naked fighter, assuming 4 man party, and the entire party may very well have to stop and wait until I'm re-equipped since they no longer have a tank. Effectively, the creature has now wasted collectively several hours of everyone's time, not doing anything fun like whack the critter or advancing the adventure, but, "Let's watch Biff the fighter go shopping."

Item destruction critters are probably the biggest nukes in my game. I don't use the for the same reason that my players don't sunder. We just don't want to.

 

[coyote6]

I think that's a bigger, more interesting point.

1e and 2e had a sort of, "Close your eyes and pretend it isn't a problem" approach to magic items.

3e regulated magic items, but perhaps too much, or it made magic items too much of a percentage of a PC's power.

In 1e and 2e, the rust monster caused problems, but the game just ignored them. In 3e, the game tries to address them.

One thing that might help, if it's possible -- explain/detail/quantify how magic items affect the power of PCs. E.g., provide some guideline or rule (of thumb, or with numbers, or whatever) that would allow a GM to say, "Ah, this party of level X PCs has no gear; that makes them effectively level X-Z [for this sort of encounter]."

I don't know how you could do it without basically turning magic items into a character/power point system, which would probably be too complicated & counterproductive (an entire new system to min-max!). But, hey, y'all are the game designers & developers that get all the big bucks -- you figure it out!

(This would probably further what Hong calls "the creeping HEROization of D&D".)

 

[Hussar]

At lower levels, actually, if you look at the difference between a loaded PC and a non-magic PC, there isn't a huge difference.

A 7th level Fighter has 19k in goods. That's a pair of +1 weapons (4700 gp), +1 armor (2000 gp (ish)), +1 shield (1300 gp), a +2 stat boost item (say str) (4000 gp), a ring of swimming (2500 gp), assorted potions and such (2000 gp) and non-magical gear (the rest). I know, this is rough, but, it works as a fair guideline.

Now, how much stronger is this fighter than a fighter with only masterwork? He's got +1 to hit, +2 to damage, +2 AC, a skill bonus and buffing options. Sure, he's superior. But, how superior? Let's compare him to an 8th level fighter.

Vs an 8th level figher, he's +2 to damage, +2 AC, less of a skill bonus and same buffing options. However, his saves are lower, he's down a level for various effects, he's missing a feat and he's got 1d10 hp's less. Is he more powerful? IMO, no. He's close, but, I wouldn't say he's stronger than the 8th level fighter.

So, effectively, equipment (other than for affecting DR) is less of a change than a full level. At higher levels, the difference is more pronounced. Jump up to 14th level, and I would say that it's certainly more than a full level difference. But not two.

Really, except in the case of creatures with DR, magic items don't make THAT much of a difference before double digit levels. For at least half the game, the difference is small enough that it can be more or less ignored except in the case of DR.

I'm sure I'm going to get blasted for this. OTOH, I would LOVE to see a more comprehensive examination of this. Baseline say 7th and 14th level characters and do the comparisons. IMO, I don't think the differences are as much as people think they are. Not if you follow the wealth guidelines.

 

[Vanuslux]

Fascinating conversation. All the snide sarcastic remarks from both side of the fence aside, it's interesting to see the various points of view on the matter. Personally, I do believe that the rust monster could use some revising, but I don't like neutering it as much as the makeover did. After reading this thread I think I will let the rust monster destroy mundane items as easily as the MM version, while applying Mearl's version of the Rust ability to magical items, which should be much more resistant to destruction that mundame weapons and the getting better in 10 minutes effect could be explained by the magic in the item healing it.

 

[Klaus]

Yes, but compare that 7th-level fully loaded Fighter with an 8th-level fighter who had to make do with that dead orc's leather armor, wooden shield and a spear.