Ryan Dancey on Redefining the Hobby (Updated: time elements in a storytelling game)

[heirodule]

Something RPGs don't do as well anymore, or could do better.

I was noticing this playing Lego Star Wars II with my kids, and reflecting on other FPSs I've played that had a similar game structure.

"secrets"

You have to figure out where the minikits are, and when you get them, it unlocks certain other chrome benefits.


In D&D there were secret doors, sometimes only discovered by meticulous mapping.

I play alot of RPGA games, and the "secrets" are usually not as well structured or "rewarded" as in oldtime D&D or as in these FPSs or Lego Star Wars.

The DM has a role in this, as they're the ones responsible for putting in the secrets and also they usually feel bad if the players "miss" them, and there isn't a "lets replay the level and look for all the secrets this time"

I wonder how to get teh secret-hunting feel mroe into D&D.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I think you should listen to him. He seems to have hit the nail on the head to where my own personal thoughts have been moving and why WOTC has slowly been pushing me to look at older editions of D&D again.

Current D&D seems to sacrifice story for rules.

How many books do you need to own in order to write a story and read it to your players?

Keep RPG's a GAME. The story is what happened at the table. Not what you crammed down your players throats.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Of course, there's very little relation between the number of people playing TRPGs vs. the number of people buying them.

Ryan

A group only needs one PHB to operate, if that. We have 2, out of 5 regular players, and another group of 2 people who join us from time to time. Everyone who plays Magic needs cards. Also, pretty much everyone who plays magic needs NEW cards as they are produced to stay on their game. You hardly need the latest Complete X to be able to game. Then theres even more niche products, like Exemplars fo Evil and adventures, aimed squarely at DM's, who are a single person out of a group of several players.

 

[gizmo33]

And the sooner that 'railroading' loses this ridiculous extreme-end-of-the-spectrum connotation that it seems to have acquired, the happier I'll be. Different thread I guess.

I think gaming style is going to be relevant to any thread that discusses where the RPG hobby ought to go. Folks are going to want the direction, and products created, to support their gaming style.

"Railroading" does have an extreme connotation - the metaphor suggests it. I don't think the metaphor is an appropriate one for something in the gray area of DM control of the situation. It's like saying that the word "maniac" has acquired a ridiculous extreme-end-of-the-spectrum connotation. Well...yea.

"Story telling" puts in the mind of the DM a priority that IMO is at odds with what the game is about. The traditional game has strong elements of "adjucating the situation" to it - rolling dice behind the screen, deciding on NPC reactions based on versimiltude, etc. There are very few places, if any, in the core books where the assumption is that the DM will decide outcome based on his arbitrary notions of what makes for an interesting story, and yet that's what "story telling" denotes, and ultimately encourages.

Deciding that the BBEG is an uncle of one of the PCs is NOT story telling - I don't have a problem with that. It's the DMs job to define the elements the game world, and how they relate to each other - and choosing interesting elements with dramatic potential is fine. As long as the DM doesn't determine how the events unfold by going beyond the rule set and versimiltude and just making up something that sounds good.

Granted, this is all gaming style opinion, but IMO it's at the core of what it means to develop the hobby in a direction because you first have to figure out what RPGs are all about. If you want to use DnD as a story telling vehicle, or to teach math skills, or whatever then that's fine too in a broad sense - I'm just not going to advocate for that approach because ultimately it will create a product that I'm not interested in buying.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

RD's blog has got me thinking, as usual.

Me too. RD's right more often than he is wrong, and even when he's wrong he's worth thinking about.

A lot of people *play* (not DM) D&D for the same reasons that people play MMO's: for socialising, avatar empowerment, strategic thinking and group strategic thinking.

Jeez, I can't think of a more apt description of my game group.

Our group is eight 30-something guys, almost all married, engaged, or partnered up; no kids. Various outside interests, a lot of sports, a lot of drinkin'. Typical guys.

I don't think there are a lot of video gamers amongst them, so I have no idea how successful an MMO would be at pulling any of them away from my group.

Almost all are former D&D players from childhood. Why they played then, why they left, and why they came back, I don't know-- but I do know that our game sessions typically feature: socializing, avatar empowerment, strategic thinking, and group strategic thinking, in roughly that order.

Nobody-- nobody-- is here to tell a story. A good story that arises from one of our game sessions is a fortunate circumstance, at best, but certainly not the motivation for playing.

That started to change with City of Heroes and accelerated with World of Warcraft. I now believe the data shows strongly that WoW in particular appeals so powerfully to a certain subset of TRPG players that they are quitting tabletop gaming to play MMORPGs almost exclusively. That segment is the Power Gamer group.

(A Power Gamer is a player who most enjoys the game when it delivers a Tactical/Combat Focus. This kind of person is likely to enjoy playing a character that has a minimum of personality (often, this kind of person plays a character that is simply an extension of the player). This kind of player enjoys short, intense gaming experiences. The consequences of a failed action are minimized for this player, who will roll up a new character and return to the fray without much thought for the storyline implications of that action.)

I would describe myself and my players as Power Gamers-- but with personal investment in our Avatars. For as lightly as we take the game, nobody at the table takes the loss of our Avatar lightly. It sucks. It feels like "losing."

Interestingly enough to your point, I had one hardcore WoW player join my group, and he left almost immediately after his PC died (around 2nd level).

As a designer, I would focus on delivering that "alternate Power Gamer" experience-- rapid empowerment, meaningful decisions, strategic thinking-- with a "gritty" and consequential "game reality." That is why I maintain that D&D would be a better game if it focused on that portion of the game that most strongly delivers this kind of play: the Sweet Spot, roughly defined as levels 2-8. (1st level is that portion of play where the player becomes emotionally invested in the character, and so it falls outside the actual sweet spot of play.)

The best game prolongs or extends that sweet spot for the maximum real-time duration (measured in the number of game sessions moreso than in hours of play), because this delivers the longest social aspect of the game.

 

[Virel]

Ramble by Gamer w/30+ years of wargames, D&D, AD&D etc

Interesting stuff to read & and good blog to inspire thought. I don't think we have to have a revolutionary new game concept to save the hobby. We do need a revolution in what's passing for D&D these days.

I apologize in advance but this is the only way I know how to demonstrate my point. I like the folks on the board, I don't want to make you guys mad or get banned etc. I would like to share my input on this stuff.

I've been DMing since 1981, played my first D&D in the late 70's, and I'm a die hard old school DM & player. If you enjoy playing and your friends do too, then it dosen't matter one bit if the whole RPG industry disappears tomorrow. My 1st ed AD&D is still going strong. There are a surprising number of the older games that are still in play or players return too. If you want the key to saving the future of these face to face games, I think the secret will be found in the older formats.

I've played 3e and don't think much of it. The core idea is good. It wants to be like AD&D despite not having the A in the name. The designers tried very hard to get back to the basics. They also try to build an error proof system to protect players from bad DM's something AD&D, NEVER attempted. The result was a ton of crunchy rules. While some might like that, its not a selling point for most people. I'm ok with playing 3e, if I ignore the system inflicted bogs, it actually has some OAD&D feel to it when limited to core. I know the designers had the right vision in mind...

Before that starts a flame war, it's due to the prep time, tons of rules that slow the game pace, lack of inspiring text, stale ideas, excessive political correctness. It just like the reading primers in public school. They kill the magic of reading and don't inspire, so no one wants to read.

The most important book, is always the PHB, if it can't inspire players and DM's to dream, the game has two strikes against it. The 3e & 3.5e PHB's are good for inspiring bordom because of the way the are written. I hate WotC's version of the PHB, DMG, & MM because they are written in such a dumbed down manner. Guys get someone that actually knows how to write!

Rules Light and quick to pick up and play. - The current version is a total failure at this.

I learned to play by reading the old books back in the day. No one showed me. When I started looking at 3e, I was told dozens of times, you'll need someone to show you how to play.

Talk about a self imposed barrier to the hobby!

I think what players want, is the same today as it's always been. It's about Ego Gradification. It takes different forms etc but that's the core. The question becomes, how is that provided with a game. Or more specifically, how does a pencil and paper (ok table top) game beat World of Warcraft or whatever at Ego Gradication. Yes, you have to beat WoW for a player niche if you want commerical stuff to be around ten years from now.

Pretty simple really, IMHO.

A Players gets the Ego Gradified by having his or her character involved in a personalized, non-linear set of events designed by someone else (DM) that is related to the character so that the player can interact with and effect the direction and outcome of the said events.

The game event has to say, the player and his or her character matter! You make a difference!

I apologize in advance but this is the only way I know how to demonstrate my point.

So you want to grow the number of players and sell books and other stuff?

I've turned players away from my AD&D game because I don't have space. Some of them are 3e players that can't find a game. Often they will rant about how bad AD&D is and how it sucks for a while and how if I had a clue and wasn't some silly old fool, I'd be running 3e.

Back when I had spaced, I'd offer them a chance to play. Most of them took it, seemed to have and wanted to play again. They'd come around in time to just maybe AD&D didn't suck so bad after all. Giving them a free old AD&D PHB, usually won my campaign a new player. Several got inspired and wanted to switch back, saying if they DM'd again they be running and older D&D variant. Three got into wanting to learning to DM - old school formats. The one that had DM'd 3e game said he wouldn't run it again, he was going old school from here on out.

All three of them branched out into running their version of AD&D in time. I've lost contact with them but I think that's very interesting because two of them wouldn't touch even trying to DM 3e!

My offensive point is the game (all formats) lives of dies based on having a good fair motivated DM.

While 3e might protect from the bad DM, it's not going to make a bad DM a good one. It trades insperation for protection. Games don't grow without insperation.

What needs to happen is a new rules light version of the game. WotC needs suck it up and get someone like EGG or EGG himself to write the books in an inspiring way to put the text magic back into the game. The other part, if you want this stuff to grow is start training DM's. Bad DM's have killed more games and ruined more interest than about anything else in the history of the game IMO. Training is something companies hate to do but teaching the core concepts of how to DM effectively is the key. It's not just the rules thing but how to be fair, how to look at a situation, how to think like a DM, when to be die hard BY THE BOOK and when to throw the BOOK out the window in the game of fun and surprise. Printing another stupid book like DMG II isn't want I'm talking about.

Face to Face classes or DM classes over the internet. I know I'd pay for that and I'm an old school DM, whos 1st ed AD&D campaign that started in 1981 is running in 2007. Heck, I'd pay for the DM class, even if it was all 3.5 because I know I can always learn more about effective DMing.

I did have a few years off but 20 years + and counting for my AD&D game.

I wouldn't pay ten cents for a complete set of all the stupid poorly written books that WotC has.

Fix the DM issue & the lousy non-inspiring books and face to face, paper and pencil games will grow again.

 

[Ry]

The story is the thing that happens after the game, because of the situations that the the DM and players created together. The game itself has a big impact on what that story is like. In that way, roleplaying games are about creating stories.

I don't think Ryan Dancey really disagrees with what I just wrote.

I do think that the above shows "storytelling games" is at least as much of a misnomer as "roleplaying games." We tell stories from our game experiences where we took roles. I don't think there's a good word in the English language for X, where Xgames succinctly describes our hobby.

 

[der_kluge]

FWIW, I think the movie industry is dying a slow death, too. I mean, for two adults, I'll spend $18 at the theater to watch something that will be out on DVD in 3 months, which I can purchase for that much, if not less. That doesn't include the cost of gas and popcorn.

I don't see how the theater industry is a sustainable model. It seems to be, but I can't see it lasting forever, honestly. How can it?


It also seems to me that MMORPGs are offering the same kind of value that home theater systems are offering - cheaper, more bang for the buck, more versatility. The same reason CDs are going to eventually go the way of the dinosaur - people now buy individual MP3s to get exactly the songs they want. Radio is also dying - people want choices, they want personalized entertainment.


I think some folks have the idea - D&D needs to be multiple kinds of games if it is to succeed. Firstly, it HAS to be simpler. One should be able to open a box/book, roll characters, and be ready to play in about 30 minutes, tops. I'd really be interested in seeing a "group study" of teenagers who were not familiar with the game at all, handed dice, a PHB, and a DMG, and told "play a game. You have 4 hours." I think for WoTC, it would be a HORRIBLE wake-up call.

In fact, I might even be tempted to do such a thing myself. Just to illustrate the point.

 

[Virel]

der_kluge is on the mark, personalized entertainment based around your character, that's the key.

 

[Alnag]

I'd really be interested in seeing a "group study" of teenagers who were not familiar with the game at all, handed dice, a PHB, and a DMG, and told "play a game. You have 4 hours." I think for WoTC, it would be a HORRIBLE wake-up call.

Yeah. I see your point. But to be honest... D&D has the product for beginners. D&D Basic set Which would do the job nicely in 4 hours, I belive. The problem is, when you or anybody decide to begin with the game, he will not be offered this (in most cases) but PHB instead.