Ryan Dancey on Redefining the Hobby (Updated: time elements in a storytelling game)

[Alnag]

Dude....I have not met anyone who buys or uses Mongoose products in 2 years. That may just be my area, but from conversations on ENW and CM, I believe you're smoking crack.

And yet the company still exist, still publishes hell lot of products, buy new licences and so on. They either print their own money or they sell their products to someone. The fact they you have not met anyone who uses or buys Mongoose products just proves the value of anecdotical evidence. That is no value at all!

Check rpg.net for Exalted... seems like they are played by half of the world, right? Check the numbers? They are not even in top15 buyed games, I guess.

 

[Klaus]

That is a very well put summary of the concept that "D&D should not be videogamey". Not because it's a bad thing per se (in fact many of us gamers also enjoy playing CRPGs or MMORPGs), but because to stay strong (or survive) it must be different.

The more it tries to emulate the features of a computerized game, the more the limitations of running the game "live" (i.e. with a DM) become evident, while at the same time the strengths of it (which a computer can never emulate) become less and less relevant. Going too far means that at a certain point there's less reasons to play a RPG that works like a CRPG, when you can play a CRPG that does its own things much better...

I believe there are strengths to CRPGs that tabletop RPGs could bear to emulate more, namely visual attractiveness, immediacy of fulfilment and ease of management.

Visual Attractiveness: *some* level of visual representation that sparks the interest of the players and serves as a focus for their imagination and attention. This can range from an evocative artwork on a DM Screen to PC Portraits to counters/miniatures to spell-effect templates to battlemaps to fully-realized Dwarven Forge terrains.

Immediacy of Fulfilment: it's that delay between "hey, let's game" and actually gaming. With a CRPG, you only have to wait for the computer to startup and the game to load. The more "out-of-the-box" an adventure can be, the better. Pre-gen characters of the appropriate level (with character hooks included), sidebars at the start of an adventure to help DMs who didn't have much time to read through (like "this item will be important in Area 13-G"). The DM Preparation Guide in the DMG2 and the Delve Format in the new Expedition modules are a step in the right direction.

Ease of Management: stuff to relieve the pressure of remembering lots of rules and conditions. In a CRPG, the computer does all the math and rules. We can't (yet) have a self-calculating paper character sheet. But stuff like the Action cards included in the Fiery Dragon's BattleBox, or the Condition Cards posted in ENWorld's news page really help remind a player of what he can do or what's affecting him.

If a game's rules are the software, the tools to use those rules are the hardware. And the hardware now is hardly different from what it was 30 years ago (paper, dice, pencil).

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Well, we may have to agree to disagree. IME, the wealth of rules have impeded the breath and types of stories that can be run with D&D. In addition, the rules have severely limited the story aspects I receive from my players. A good portion of players tend to be far more insular and attentive to character building rather than interaction with one another or the game world.

I am not saying that rules are bad; however, the sheer focus that WOTC places on them has had a negative effect. I would say that this is fairly true for my area. I have gamed with a lot of people in my area when I was a WOTC delegate.

To be honest, I expect your experience isn't limited to your area and it probably IS more common, though I really can't say for sure if it is or isn't.

It always seemed to me that those kind of players were always there, and always the most common. Its not a bad thing, it just seems to me that its the way things are. I think that D&D has a way of attracting people that like to tinker with numbers, even pre-3e, more that it does on the story end.

So maybe WotC isn't helping it by pushing rules, but then again maybe it wouldn't make a difference. If the people want rules, they'll get it, and that seems to be what they've wanted for a great many years now.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Dude....I have not met anyone who buys or uses Mongoose products in 2 years. That may just be my area, but from conversations on ENW and CM, I believe you're smoking crack.

Whether he partakes in narcotics or not, I have a feeling he might be in a good position to know what Mongoose's actual wholesale figures were in 2006. So, if Mongoose is as small a segment of the industry as you seem to believe from your conversations on ENW and CM, then Ryan's numbers are even further off than MongooseMatt suggests.

 

[RFisher]

There is no doubt in my mind that TRPGs need to be sure to play to their strengths, & that many TRPGs could do so better than they are doing today.

Of course, there's very little relation between the number of people playing TRPGs vs. the number of people buying them.

& this is a very important thing that must be realized. Especially when comparing TRPGs to other games. Trying to compete with other products on their terms is a recipe for disaster. The income generated by a TRPG & a MMOG may both be in the same dollars, but it is far from the same.

 

[TheCrazyMuffinMan]

The medium might be well taken into account when one is serving a message, but that doesn't make it the message.

The truth is, serving the tactician mentality in TRPGs does nothing to cost the storytellers on its own. A skilled DM knows how to serve both, or to deal with extremes of either. While trying to copy a style isn't the wisest thing to do, trying to oppose that style is not much better. Let both styles evolve as needed, in their own right. If MMOs and TRPGs acquire similar styles over natural development, so be it. Trying to copy MMOs and trying to anti-copy them, or actively thwart anything that can associate TRPGs therewith, are equally futile.

As for RPing via the internet: It is more than possible, and feasible, with instant messaging (a social medium that bridges the distance gap), and though it does weaken in some ways (you're not all together, rolls less obviously verifiable), it actually strengthens in others (ready access to rules solutions, easier private notes). It's more of a choice/circumstance thing. While it clearly isn't the way some would prefer, it's hardly the 'worst thing you can do' in any objective sense.

 

[maddman75]

The reason people play is to have fun, and people have fun for different reasons. One reason, as Ryan noted, that the numbers are falling is that if you're just looking for the power gamer hack & slash experience, what exactly does D&D offer you that Warcraft doesn't? The inconvenience of not being able to play whenever you want? The lack of 3D graphics? The scent of unwashed gamer? No, if you're after kill monster, loot bodies, level up, WoW beats the crap out of D&D.

Now there's lots of other kinds of fun as well, and some of those computer games suck at. The telling a great story is one way to have fun - even if the player is more into 'play a role' or 'socialize with friends' or whatever, those are not inhibited by creating a good story. I prefer story-creating to story-telling, as many players will think of railroads when you say this. They think it means the GM will tell them a story.

I've got a breakdown of how I do this on my blog, but the short version is you can get an awesome game experience by trying to follow a story structure - introduction, exposition, rising action, climax, coda - within a single night's session. You do this by remaining flexible and using scene cutting to push the game along, as well as introducing and pushing conflict at the characters. Metagame mechanics also help a great deal by giving the players more authoritarian control. Fast simple rules help as well.

 

[TheCrazyMuffinMan]

The reason people play is to have fun, and people have fun for different reasons. One reason, as Ryan noted, that the numbers are falling is that if you're just looking for the power gamer hack & slash experience, what exactly does D&D offer you that Warcraft doesn't? The inconvenience of not being able to play whenever you want? The lack of 3D graphics? The scent of unwashed gamer? No, if you're after kill monster, loot bodies, level up, WoW beats the crap out of D&D.

I see your point, and I like your blog, but I do have a minor response:

This hypothetical power-gamer is free to lean toward both games if he so desires. I myself am a rather blatant tactician, both as a DM and as a player (though I do lean to storyteller mentality when it helps the most), and I can see some things I like about D&D.

An interesting new system in which to test my ability to rise above my opponents, with about 30+ years of history and development behind it, leading to more twinking options.

The knowledge that I am facing challenges created by a learning, adapting, thinking, knowing force, rather than an AI.

The challenge of getting said force to accept a new class that's good enough for my powergaming self, yet not game-breaking enough for the DM to reject.


Question: There are many power gamers, many that have some of those conceptions of tabletop gaming. However, how many players are as one-sided about this approach as the hypothetical one in your post?

 

[The_Gneech]

Do people really think that shifting from "role-playing games" to "story-telling games" is any less geeky? C'mon folks. D&D is what it is. It may pass through phases when it's less geeky or more geeky, but it will always be geeky.

D&D will never be "cool" to non-D&D gamers. That's just the way it is.

My thoughts exactly. We are all a bunch of nerds, and are never going to be not-nerds. The only thing to be done is to embrace and learn to love your nerditude.

-The Gneech

 

[pawsplay]

Therefore, I think we need to engage in metamorphosis from “roleplaying games” to “storytelling games”. And in that change lies the seeds of our success.

I tried to come up with a really observant, insightful response that would express a counterpoint to this idea, but I'm afraid all I've got is

YUCK!! EWWW!!!