D&D General Sandbox and/or/vs Linear campaigns

[KYRON45]

That is because it is the internet, not because sandboxes are a myth. People also argue over whether the earth is flat on the internet

The sandbox posits that the players have unbridled freedom. I posit that in any game that requires a DM…players do not have this freedom.

Now people will hem and haw about shades of this or that and degrees of that or this.

What it all comes down to (for me) is this….a D&D game (this being a D&D thread) requires that a DM moderates a game for players. It also requires players that respect the fact that said DM puts in a bit of effort creating the fun the players expect.

If the DM says….we’re playing in the Forgotten Realms and the players say…nah…we’re playing in Eberron. That’s not a sandbox…that’s chaos.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The sandbox posits that the players have unbridled freedom. I posit that in any game that requires a DM…players do not have this freedom.

But this is just a style preference being used to dismiss sandbox. It doesn't mean sandboxes don't exist.

 

[KYRON45]

But this is just a style preference being used to dismiss sandbox. It doesn't mean sandboxes don't exist.

Sandbox is a word people use to describe the lack of linearity (if that’s even a word). I’m saying that there is always some degree of linear play. And if there is always some linear play….therenis no need to differentiate one style of play from another.

This is just how my mind works. I’m not at all saying that it should be how others should view the matter.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Sandbox is a word people use to describe the lack of linearity (if that’s even a word). I’m saying that there is always some degree of linear play. And if there is always some linear play….therenis no need to differentiate one style of play from another.

I would dispute this idea, as a lot of sandbox play has zero linearity to it at all. But even if we grant that, it matters because if someone is expecting to play adventure paths and gets dropped in an open world sandbox, that is going to be potentially confusing and frustrating for them; and if someone is expecting an open world sandbox, and gets dropped into a more linear adventure, they could ruin the session because they aren't going after hooks and aren't trying to engage with the adventure that is presented. It is also a distinction that matters in terms of campaign prep.

 

[mamba]

This was not my description of a sand box though

This is my description of a Rules First Game with a Player-DM.

funny, you wrote sandbox in there repeatedly, but never rules first... 'In the Sandbox game...' sure sounds like you are explaining a sandbox game

 

[KYRON45]

I would dispute this idea, as a lot of sandbox play has zero linearity to it at all. But even if we grant that, it matters because if someone is expecting to play adventure paths and gets dropped in an open world sandbox, that is going to be potentially confusing and frustrating for them; and if someone is expecting an open world sandbox, and gets dropped into a more linear adventure, they could ruin the session because they aren't going after hooks and aren't trying to engage with the adventure that is presented. It is also a distinction that matters in terms of campaign prep.

True or False:
In sandbox play the party shows up and does whatever they want and the Dm has to adjust to that?

 

[mamba]

It seems like people are arguing over what a sandbox even is.

not really, there was a description that used the word 'sandbox' that everyone agreed did not describe a sandbox game

 

[KYRON45]

not really, there was a description that used the word 'sandbox' that everyone agreed did not describe a sandbox game

Doesn't that mean that different people define (i hate the definitions game) what is and isn't a sandbox differently?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Inspired by the latest turn that the [rant] thread has taken...

Let's talk about linear and/or/vs sandbox campaign styles!

So, first, let's back up and define "campaign" for our discussion purposes:

Campaign:
1. The DM decides on a campaign setting, be it published or homebrewed or a bit of each, and pitches it to some players
2. The DM outlines the campaign guidelines, including table etiquette, where and when they'll meet, ruleset/books available, house rules, etc.
3. The DM describes how character creation will be accomplished including any limitations and latitudes
4. LG!
Note: Yes, of course, the DM might do all the heavy lifting and just present this to be accepted/rejected, or it could be a true group collaboration, or it could be the DM doing most of the work but with some input from players, or...

Heck, let's back up further and define "D&D" at its very simplistic basic core regardless of edition for our discussion purposes:

D&D:
1. The DM describes a scene
2. The players decide how they want their characters to act, think, or speak in relation to said scene
3. The DM narrates the outcome of the characters' activity, using dice when appropriate
4. Back to 1, with the scene having changed as a result of the characters' activity


Now, what is a sandbox and what is a linear adventure?
Based on personal experience and much that I've gleaned here from the good people of ENWorld*, I'm beginning to think there is probably a spectrum here not just a binary "either/or". The amount of prep work and the amount of improv can vary wildly and is not necessarily correlated with the type of campaign style

I'm going to take a leap and assign some descriptors to the campaign styles here but... I'm not wedded to any of them so suggest away with edits, additions, deletions, fusions...

Basic Linear adventure:
A --> B --> C

• DM has prepared several locations/situations
• The players pick up on the hooks laid down by the DM and progress through them in a prescribed order
• Sometimes pejoratively referred to as a "railroad", sometimes realistically described as a "railroad"

Moderate Linear adventure:
A --> B --> D
or
A --> C --> D
- Same as basic only there is more than one way to get from start to finish

Advanced Linear adventure:
A, B, C, D (or more) are on the table

• Players go about it in any order they want
• Ultimately, A is the start and D is the end, B or C (and more) may or may not be optional to complete D

Basic Sandbox adventure:
Hmm... maybe possibly indistinguishable from the Advanced Linear Adventure?

Moderate Sandbox adventure:
A, B, C, D (and more... perhaps many more) are on the table

• The DM has prepared A, B, C, D but otherwise just has a map with a bunch of places to explore
• The players choose whichever location/situation they want their PCs to explore
• If it is one the DM has prepared, nice!
• If it is one the DM has not prepared, improv or random encounter table!

Advanced Sandbox adventure:
A, B, C, D (and more... many more) are on the table

• The DM has prepared it all. This person does not require sleep and/or is independently wealthy and/or is retired.
• The players choose whichever location/situation they want their PCs to explore
• LG!

Ultimate Sandbox adventure:
There's a map with all the things

• The players choose whichever location/situation they want their PCs to explore
• IMPROV!

*I currently do not have time to do much with D&D aside from my own campaigns and some (occasionally too much) ENWorld reading so... if someone has some great video or blog suggestions on the topic, I'd be willing to check it out.

My preference is somewhere between moderate and advanced. A basic sketch of the map and all its marked areas is prepared, with more detail available for the PCs starting area and close environs. Multiple options are presented beyond that, and the PCs choices on what to pursue determine where the GM's future prep efforts are focused. Improv, random tables etc are used as needed in play (again based on the PCs choices), and to facilitate these situations the DM also has several dynamic locations prepared that can be dropped in and added to the setting in an appropriate way as needed.

 

[mamba]

Doesn't that mean that different people define (i hate the definitions game) what is and isn't a sandbox differently?

no, because even the one writing the 'definition' said it did not describe a sandbox

I don't think you have a handle on what a sandbox is

This was not my description of a sand box though

This is my description of a Rules First Game with a Player-DM.