Sandbox gaming

For a completely non-traditional example, consider a police procedural RPG in which the players get a list of cases they can choose to investigate each week.

Cool. And this struck me as really nice. The Wire campaign. Let's say you were going to prep that with your players. Care to share some thoughts on the nuts and bolts of what you'd do.


I don't think that necessarily has to be the case.

For example, Baldurs Gate 2 sets up a scenario whereby you have to earn some huge amount of money in order to ransom a hostage of the thieves guild.

I think where people go wrong is that they assume that player choice means they no longer have to present adventure hooks and mini-scenarios, that players just go wandering around in a world of vacuum.

Cheers. I agree about BG2 and the player choice thing. My opening example was in no way meant to be 'the only way'. Just one way to get things rolling.

I hope this thread will be a place to discuss what has worked for people in a sandbox game - and specifically - some ideas on exactly how they prepped those games (how much work they did, what they wrote, what they statted up, what they mapped, how involved the players were in all that.)
 

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Cool. And this struck me as really nice. The Wire campaign. Let's say you were going to prep that with your players. Care to share some thoughts on the nuts and bolts of what you'd do.

Good question. Not sure I have a great answer because I haven't actually run a campaign like that, but a few thoughts:

(1) I'm not sure the "here's a list of cases for you to choose from" is actually a great way to prep for a campaign because the format is pretty much guaranteed to waste prep (whatever cases they don't pursue).

But it might work well for a play-by-post game where all the PCs are acting independently. People can claim an available case from the list of cases. Dynamics to explore:

- If a case has been hanging around too long, your supervisor is going to assign it to someone randomly. We need to get the board black.
- I'd probably randomize the arrival of new cases.
- Figuring out some way of encouraging people to cooperate on cases would be useful. (This might be a mechanical issue: If a single character is unlikely to have all the investigatory skills they need, then they'll need to seek out other PCs with expertise to help them.) Having supervisors force partnerships onto cases which have been lagging would also be an option.
- I'd definitely play into the competitive aspect of the case board. Who's solved the most cases? Give some social competition incentive for people to stay engaged with the game.

You could use similar techniques in a face-to-face game if you have a large group of players and only some of the players are present at each session. (Like a West Marches campaign, except you pick a case you want to investigate when you schedule the session.)

(2) I'd want to develop the equivalent of random encounter tables for generating cases. Not as the be-all and end-all of case design, but as a conceptual stirrer and improv tool. Things like: "type of clue", a list of character types to generate victims and suspects, etc.

(3) While keeping a fair seeding of "random encounter" cases (random homicides, etc.), I'd also design 3-4 different but interconnected criminal cartels and maybe a serial killer and then spike the active cases with various crimes that will hook the PCs into the current schemes of these cartels. Look at Don't Prep Plots and Node-Based Scenario Design for ways to structure this type of design.

Link the cartels to city hall; the teamsters; a local congressman; a major corporation; etc.

(4) Don't forget the departmental politics. I'm not entirely sure how I'd structure this prep, but at the very least you'd want 4-6 interesting NPCs with competitive goals to serve as grist for the mill. Promotions and demotions should be part of the dynamic for the PCs.

And that's pretty much it. I'm guessing it would take 25-30 pages of prep to get started and then you could expand from there. (5 pages for the campaign structure + player briefing; 1 page outline for each of the conspiracies; 2-3 pages for each of 6 starting cases; some other miscellaneous notes.)

If I was trying to prep a campaign like this for a single group of characters, I'd want two things:

(1) A system for creating case content on the fly. Even keeping my case prep to 1-2 page outlines, I still wouldn't want to waste 50-75% of my prep time on cases the PCs don't pursue. I'd be looking for an improv structure that would feed me answers to questions like, "What type of clue is it?" A document. "Where does it lead?" A new location. "What location?" Abandoned warehouse.

(2) A system for allowing NPCs to clear some of the case backlog the PCs aren't interested in. (But having superior officers lean on them to take cases they don't want would still be part and parcel of the setting.)
 

A railroad (again, IMHO) mandates that some level of control over player choices is denied the players.
I agree. But that's unfortunately _not_ how it is typically described. There's several rabid 'sandboxers' who scream "Railroad!" at the slightest hint of a suggestion of trying to provide the players with information that might actually allow them to make a _meaningful_ choice.
 
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I agree. But that's unfortunately _not_ how it is typically described. There's several rabid 'sandboxers' who scream "Railroad!" at the slightest hint of a suggestion of trying to provide the players with information that might actually allow them to make a _meaningful_ choice.

I'll accept that there are undoubtedly people like that who exist. (There are probably people who think libertarians are communists.) But "typical"?

While it's possible that I've simply missed this huge groundswell of "rabid sandboxers", but there are currently 3-4 threads on the front page here at ENWorld dealing with sandbox/railroad and linear/non-linear issues and I've yet to see anybody describe railroading the way you're claiming they do.
 

I'll accept that there are undoubtedly people like that who exist. (There are probably people who think libertarians are communists.) But "typical"?

While it's possible that I've simply missed this huge groundswell of "rabid sandboxers", but there are currently 3-4 threads on the front page here at ENWorld dealing with sandbox/railroad and linear/non-linear issues and I've yet to see anybody describe railroading the way you're claiming they do.

I have played with hundreds of people, and have never met one.


RC
 

I'll accept that there are undoubtedly people like that who exist. (There are probably people who think libertarians are communists.) But "typical"?
Well, they're representative of the posters who're still posting after such a thread has hit a page count of 20+. Only they and their equally rabid opposition are still interested at that point.
While it's possible that I've simply missed this huge groundswell of "rabid sandboxers", but there are currently 3-4 threads on the front page here at ENWorld dealing with sandbox/railroad and linear/non-linear issues and I've yet to see anybody describe railroading the way you're claiming they do.
I can think of several (and unsurprisingly at least one of them is currently participating in the ""Railroading" is just a pejorative term for... " thread).

He'd probably tell you that I was trying to impose my idea of 'the story' on my players by providing clues to them...
 

Well, they're representative of the posters who're still posting after such a thread has hit a page count of 20+. Only they and their equally rabid opposition are still interested at that point.
I can think of several (and unsurprisingly at least one of them is currently participating in the ""Railroading" is just a pejorative term for... " thread).

He'd probably tell you that I was trying to impose my idea of 'the story' on my players by providing clues to them...

I'd love to see the quotes you're basing that on....... :eek:
 

I had hoped this thread would not become another place for discussion of 'rabid' anything. We've got at least one of those already. Yeah the debate can get heated, and, yeah, it can get totally dull if you're not the one holding down a position.

But I just hope this thread is to discuss 'How to set up a fun, working Sandbox game' for those interested in giving it a go. Not a discussion on it being 'better' or other styles being 'bad' or whatever.

[MENTION=55271]Beginning of the End[/MENTION] has posted a great outline set-up prep for a modern day campaign with the PCs as cops. I'd love to see more of that stuff - or to talk through some of the areas in that example which maybe need some fleshing out - so anyone thinking of the sandbox can see other people's specific ideas / examples.

Course, I can't make that happen. It's just my thoughts. Thanks guys.
 

For a completely non-traditional example, consider a police procedural RPG in which the players get a list of cases they can choose to investigate each week. Properly designed this could be very sandbox-y.

This strikes me as the very worst type of setting to use for a sandbox. The agents in a police procedural have no choice about what cases they take on & are ultimately reactive both in the fiction & in the real world (except the Mentalist who almost turns down the odd case).
The setting as described in BotEs later post sounds great. I guess is suits something like the Wire meets Miami Vice where there issome freedom of action but they are still solving other peoples plots.
(As an aside the Wire has great characterisation & ongoing plots but terrible resolutions most seasons are very anticlimactic - is this an issue with sandboxes they are great for tootling along but less good at big finishes?)


I don't think I have ever played an very sandboxy game (in a lot of years), the closest was probably shared GMing Ars Magica, which started out much like the OP scenario, yet I hate when my characters are forced into courses action at the whim of the GM, or GMs narrate my actions. I feel characters I play are like the protagonists in the stories I read - mostly murder mysteries/crime fiction. Most characters in fiction are reactive carrying taking part in stories that they do not instigate themselves.

These characters can do what they like but the plot happens independently of them. The murder is carried out or the evil scheme to take over the world is taking place & the our heroes are there to stop it. I am not sure how this sort of thing would be dealt with in a sandbox? Group design would seem to be out - as mystery is part of the point.

I got a bit rambly here & also suck at endings
 

This strikes me as the very worst type of setting to use for a sandbox. The agents in a police procedural have no choice about what cases they take on & are ultimately reactive both in the fiction & in the real world (except the Mentalist who almost turns down the odd case).
The setting as described in BotEs later post sounds great. I guess is suits something like the Wire meets Miami Vice where there issome freedom of action but they are still solving other peoples plots.
(As an aside the Wire has great characterisation & ongoing plots but terrible resolutions most seasons are very anticlimactic - is this an issue with sandboxes they are great for tootling along but less good at big finishes?)


I don't think I have ever played an very sandboxy game (in a lot of years), the closest was probably shared GMing Ars Magica, which started out much like the OP scenario, yet I hate when my characters are forced into courses action at the whim of the GM, or GMs narrate my actions. I feel characters I play are like the protagonists in the stories I read - mostly murder mysteries/crime fiction. Most characters in fiction are reactive carrying taking part in stories that they do not instigate themselves.

These characters can do what they like but the plot happens independently of them. The murder is carried out or the evil scheme to take over the world is taking place & the our heroes are there to stop it. I am not sure how this sort of thing would be dealt with in a sandbox? Group design would seem to be out - as mystery is part of the point.

I got a bit rambly here & also suck at endings

I run sandbox campaigns and have run them across a bunch of genres. The best way to handle a reactive genre is to build the expected reactions into the group contract for play "Let's play a game where the PCs are X and trying to protect/investigate Y!" instead of "Let's play this game system!" This works fine for such reactive genres as superheroes and continual mysteries (pulp investigators, film noir detectives, and the like), and others that are highly dependent on external activity. The campaign description and expectation helps drive player choice towards those activities that are within the genres being emulated. Using a game system that matches/rewards those genres elements is useful as well.
 

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