Sandbox style: How to handle challenge levels

[rounser]

By keeping as many detail realistic you get the benifit of how people of different experience interact in real-life. For example the PCs wouldn't go dragon slaying off the bat they may assisst the local noble in clearing out bandits and orcs from his demense. Then later get a job guarding a scholar in exploring a ruins. Then get to the point where they have enough contacts and experience to start perusing their own leads in more dangerous areas.

Okay, but even with the dragon example, how do our PCs have a barometer on when they're tough enough? I mean, by their standards they're much tougher at 8th level than 1st, but that may not be enough to face the dragon. 16th level? NPCs would have to be keeping tabs on the PCs in the form of "well, if you faced the Tomb of Eternal Slumber and escaped alive, you're tough enough to take on the dragon" or the like.

That still seems rather metagamey, or calling for an Elminster-like or Gandalf-like mentor or all-knowing sage, which aren't exactly welcome in many games, or make the PCs dependent on outside help. If the local farmers know about how dangerous the Tomb of Eternal Slumber is in relation to the dragon, there's suspension of disbelief issues.

Maybe this stuff is resolvable via the skill system - Knowledge (Local) giving you an idea of the creature CRs and dungeon CRs in the vicinity. That might make such skills a bit of a must, though - overinflating their importance in the game.

 

[Delta]

Okay, but even with the dragon example, how do our PCs have a barometer on when they're tough enough? I mean, by their standards they're much tougher at 8th level than 1st, but that may not be enough to face the dragon. 16th level?

Of course, this is a rather specific problem having to do with dragons, since dragons in the RAW are designed by age category to scale arbitrarily through CR levels 1-20+. Any other monster out of the book immediately implies a particular base challenge rating. Maybe one thing is to be careful to note the age a dragon in the campaign. For my current gaming, I think I'm going to collapse dragons to just 4 age categories so it's a lot simpler to keep track of.

 

[Imaro]

Okay, but even with the dragon example, how do our PCs have a barometer on when they're tough enough? I mean, by their standards they're much tougher at 8th level than 1st, but that may not be enough to face the dragon. 16th level? NPCs would have to be keeping tabs on the PCs in the form of "well, if you faced the Tomb of Eternal Slumber and escaped alive, you're tough enough to take on the dragon" or the like.

That still seems rather metagamey, or calling for an Elminster-like or Gandalf-like mentor or all-knowing sage, which aren't exactly welcome in many games, or make the PCs dependent on outside help. If the local farmers know about how dangerous the Tomb of Eternal Slumber is in relation to the dragon, there's suspension of disbelief issues.

Maybe this stuff is resolvable via the skill system - Knowledge (Local) giving you an idea of the creature CRs and dungeon CRs in the vicinity. That might make such skills a bit of a must, though - overinflating their importance in the game.

I tend to run sand box games myself and find my players enjoy them. As to your points above, I would say Gather Information, actual research(if this dragon is old enough there may be historical accounts of it's actual battles and depredations) like going to a library or religious center could garner the information, or even prophecies, omens, vision quest halluceneginics, etc. can be used to relay this information to players. It actually can be interesting and fun for both players and DM's if a little creativity is used.

 

[SgtHulka]

Another thing to consider is that NPC's aren't static just because it's a "sandbox" world. Think about some typical adventure hooks. The caravan never arrived. So we sent out the guard to investigate and they never returned either. So now we need brave adventurers to find out what happened.

Think of the above situation from the persepective of the orcs that attacked the caravan. First, they were up against some commoners and warriors and other nobodies. Then the town guard arrived and they only had to deal with a few second or third level sergeants. Pushover. But now some leveled PC's are coming and that spells trouble.

Exact same thing happens to PC's. Yeah they feel tough as nails killing a bunch of level 1 warrior orcs. The problem is, just look at a typical by the book Monster Manual 30-member tribe of orcs. Three 3rd-Level Sergeants, 5 5th-Level Lieutenants, and 3 7th-Level Captains.

So the seventh-level PC's thinking their bad@ss, decide on a genocidal mission against the orcs of the dearthwood. Sure they'll terrorize the first few encounters of orc gangs and even squads. But how long after all these patrols have "disappeared" before a high level "orc adventuring party" consisting of those three 7th-levels with their 5th-level bodyguards come out to investigate?

What happens when the Amazon Empress of the Orcs realizes one of her tribes is late with their tribute and investigates to discover the tribe has been massacred? Or the Red Dragon the orcs offer tribute to? Or the Demon Prince who suddenly stopped getting his yummy human sacrifices?

 

[Melan]

A very good point. Or, in one sentence: "Things don't happen in a vacuum."

 

[wedgeski]

I'm extremely interested to hear how DM's of sandbox-style games communicate threat levels to the PC's, to be honest. There's such a massive range of potential CR's, and then you add weight of numbers, class levels, templates, locations, and other scaling factors. How do the PC's know? Or is a sandbox campaign a constant game of 'dip their toe in the water and see what bites it off'..?

 

[Stormborn]

I'm extremely interested to hear how DM's of sandbox-style games communicate threat levels to the PC's, to be honest. There's such a massive range of potential CR's, and then you add weight of numbers, class levels, templates, locations, and other scaling factors. How do the PC's know? Or is a sandbox campaign a constant game of 'dip their toe in the water and see what bites it off'..?

Start by telling them the nature of the world. That there are places they can go that will be not only dangerous, but almost instantly deadly for them but that you will try and warn them ahead of time in game.

Clear definitions of the world around them help. For example: "Those are the Dragon Spike Mountains. For the last 100 years a huge red dragon has been seen coming and going from the peaks. During that time other draconic creatures have been seen. No one sets foot within 100 miles of that peak and returns." Information that every farmer and inn keeper in the area would know and should indicate to players that its not safe to venture there until at least the teens - if not later.

Appropriate Knowledge checks, made by the DM if neccesary for the PCs when they start discussing a region or head that way can indicate things like "You recall that your former master told you of a friend of his, a powerful memeber of the order, who went to investigate that area and barely survived with tales of horrific creatures like..." Or Gather Information checks that represent rumors heard over a week or month could inidcate "The Captain of the Order of Paladin's killed a giant monster in the sewers a few weeks ago, but lost his lieutenant and 3 full ranked members in the process."

A friendly NPC diviner comes up and says "The path you are on will only lead to your destruction if you walk it now, but if you wait to the right time you may be victorious."
Or the village mad man runs up and starts babelling things about monsters that the towns people wouldnt know were real, but the PCs (or even the players) might.

Physical clues such as giant weapons, foor prints, refugees, burned out fortresses, etc should also give the PCs the idea that an area might be too dangerous.
Call for Intelligence or Wisdom checks when all else fails and say "everything you have heard indicates going that way would be a bad idea."



Or if a Player ever asks "Is this area to dangerous for us" say something like "From what you know you would suspect so."

Never tell them what to do or where to go, but give them every available opportunity to choose otherwise.

 

[robertsconley]

Okay, but even with the dragon example, how do our PCs have a barometer on when they're tough enough? I mean, by their standards they're much tougher at 8th level than 1st, but that may not be enough to face the dragon. 16th level? NPCs would have to be keeping tabs on the PCs in the form of "well, if you faced the Tomb of Eternal Slumber and escaped alive, you're tough enough to take on the dragon" or the like.

How do you know when you are tough enough? If you were to goto a gaming convention and play say Magic the Gathering. What are the ways you can get to know your opposition?

Or

If you want to sell $40,000 metal cutting machines how does a person find his likely customers

Or

A murder has committed, how do you find the murderer.

What common to all of these is putting time into research and preparation. Now this sounds dry the way I stated it. However for the fantasy genre of D&D preparation can be made interesting and an adventure in it own right.

Preparation can be going from tavern to tavern seeing what other adventurers know. Could be a sage. Could be the character's own family. Could be a noble that has a good library and knowledge retainers. Could be that the PC Wizard is part of a mage's guild.

That still seems rather metagamey, or calling for an Elminster-like or Gandalf-like mentor or all-knowing sage, which aren't exactly welcome in many games, or make the PCs dependent on outside help. If the local farmers know about how dangerous the Tomb of Eternal Slumber is in relation to the dragon, there's suspension of disbelief issues.

What is the impact of having the Tomb in the area. Who knows about it and why? Answer these question then you can generate alternatives to the all-knowing Elminster.

Maybe this stuff is resolvable via the skill system - Knowledge (Local) giving you an idea of the creature CRs and dungeon CRs in the vicinity. That might make such skills a bit of a must, though - overinflating their importance in the game.

Skill rolls can work as a crutch in the beginning. But ultimately the better, i.e. more fun, way is to do it through role-playing in the setting.

Why?

Well because, treasure doesn't have to be in the form of loot. It can be in the contacts you made, or the allies you make. In a sandbox campaign, who is your enemy and your ally is just as important as the +3 longsword.

 

[robertsconley]

So the seventh-level PC's thinking their bad@ss, decide on a genocidal mission against the orcs of the dearthwood. Sure they'll terrorize the first few encounters of orc gangs and even squads. But how long after all these patrols have "disappeared" before a high level "orc adventuring party" consisting of those three 7th-levels with their 5th-level bodyguards come out to investigate?

This was the exact same situation my PCs were in my Wilderlands game last week. The current plot they are on involves a lich uniting the Orcs of Dearthwood (in my world they are not united and are in different tribes only one is the Purple Claws). Well they are going into Dearthwood trying to hunt down the lich and kill him before he gains any more power (he is a newly transformed lich).

They hit one of the Orc Warrens and were doing some major damage through creative use of spells. Then they hit a small group of Orcs with a medium level spellcaster. The short story is they won but the spellcaster gave them a hard time. When they got done with the fight they took a breather and tried to figure out where they were at against the orcs.

After reviewing the fights they had, they figured that

a) the lich is probably not here
(DM Note: they ransacked the lich's lab and living area and it looked like he was away on a trip to elsewhere)
b) they killed only a 1/3 of the orcs
(DM Note: they had a rough number based on talking to local rangers and scouting the warren themselves)
c) they haven't ran into the Chief's band or any of his subchiefs. Which they know are a lot closer to their level then the mooks they been fighting.
(DM's Note: they didn't realize that they were outside of the warren because of what they did earlier to distract the orcs)

So the combination of all three factors meant their toughest fighting is still ahead and their goal, the lich, was not there. So they retreated and went back to City-State.

 

[wedgeski]

Before I write this post please understand that I'm not trying to slate the sand-box playstyle, I'm simply trying to uncover useful information on how to make it work, because I want to play in the sand one day myself.

Clear definitions of the world around them help. For example: "Those are the Dragon Spike Mountains. For the last 100 years a huge red dragon has been seen coming and going from the peaks. During that time other draconic creatures have been seen. No one sets foot within 100 miles of that peak and returns." Information that every farmer and inn keeper in the area would know and should indicate to players that its not safe to venture there until at least the teens - if not later.

All well and good... but this isn't really a clear description of the *challenge*. Is this a 10th level encounter? 12th? 15th? There is easily enough leeway in 'the teens' to make the difference between a thrill-a-moment take-down, an appropriate challenge, and a TPK.

Or if a Player ever asks "Is this area to dangerous for us" say something like "From what you know you would suspect so."

That honestly strikes me as pure meta-gaming, kind of contrary to the image of the sand-box game which I've built up over the years.

What I suspect (and have seen at least once) is that the players and the DM develop a sort of unspoken, unwritten, nudge nudge wink wink meta-language that they might use almost subconsciously at the table. In such games the sand-box is an illusion, simply what other DM's may call undeveloped parts of their campaign world.