Saturday, Saturday, Saturday night's all right...

[InzeladunMaster]

I still can't put my finger on it, but there's just something that Cthulhu lacks when compared to DND or Conan.

It is my turn to get off track again. Here are my thoughts on some of the main differences between Call of Cthulhu, Conan the Role Playing Game, and Dungeons and Dragons:

First, we have the primary focus of the games. Cthulhu focuses on the slow build-up of facts and inferences to the uncovering of some horrible "truth"; Conan focuses on explosive and immediate action; in DnD, the focus is on powering yourself up in an escalating arms race.

Second, there is the focus on weirdness. In Cthulhu, the weird element is the focus; if there is an elf in the game, it will be the focus of the game, it will be weird and it will drive the character insane. In Conan, the weird element is secondary, an element added by Howard in order to get published by Weird Tales. If there is an elf in Conan, he is a monster to be overcome to prove humanity can overcome everything outside of its chosen philosophies, and is likely added simply to provide a weird element. In DnD the focus is on obtaining power, and no source of power is seen as weird or strange, as seen by the plethora of prestige classes, new races, new spells and new magic items continually presented in supplements and magazines. If an elf appears in DnD, he is likely to be a good guy, may even be a fellow adventurer, and is accepted with grace and aplomb.

The same situation exists if you replace 'elf' with 'wizard'. In Cthulhu, the wizard is the focus, the proof that there are elements out there man was not meant to know. In Conan, the wizard is there to add a touch of the weird and the horrific. In DnD, the wizard is just another adventurer, balanced for play, accepted as a normal part of society, and his magic treated as we treat technology - good if put to good use, bad if not.

Third, there is the attitude one has toward humanity in general. In Cthulhu, another focus is on human's inability to cope with realities outside his own experience and his ultimate submission to his circumstances. Humans cannot, under any circumstances, influence the world in any real way. In Conan, the focus is on the human's will, his refusal to submit to his circumstances. Humanity has an inherent strength, a barbaric essence that will come to the fore in extreme circumstances. Humans cannot easily change the world, however, as individuals. It takes groups of people to do that, as evidenced in Howard's essay, The Hyborian Age, or an extremely long period of time. In DnD, humans are to become gods, paragons, and archetypes, littered with prophecies and promises of domination over others (or being able to change the world) by acquiring power and wealth, all done without consequence beyond simply powering the character up. Humans can easily change the world as individuals if they acquire enough spells and magic items.

That is how I see the main differences. None of the differences prove one system is better than another, just that they are different. We each have our preference (and that preference may change with our moods), but that just proves we are all different too.

It would be interesting to add superhero/Star Wars/Science Fiction games to the comparisons above, but I have played too few of them to do them proper justice.

 

[InzeladunMaster]

Chris, probably what you find lacking in Call of Cthulhu is action. In CoC, action is pretty much pointless. Conan and DnD have action in surplus.

For me, I find DnD to be the system that is lacking something - the sense of the weird and the horrific, an element Conan and CoC have plenty of.

 

[Fyrestryke]

Chris, probably what you find lacking in Call of Cthulhu is action. In CoC, action is pretty much pointless. Conan and DnD have action in surplus.

For me, I find DnD to be the system that is lacking something - the sense of the weird and the horrific, an element Conan and CoC have plenty of.

Maybe that is it. I'm still not sure. But when things start breaking loose, that's when I like it. The battle in the house, where I chased down the bad guy and shot him. Rolled a freakin crit and blew his head off, consequently going insane. That was fun. Of course, I enjoyed all of the suspense that Bob built up in that game too. I still get a little bit spooked when I hear static on the radio......

 

[thormagni]

It would be interesting to add superhero/Star Wars/Science Fiction games to the comparisons above, but I have played too few of them to do them proper justice.

Well, I don't know if the supernatural or the "other" plays such a major role in any of those three genres. Because in all three genres, (I'm including Star Wars as space opera, as opposed to sci-fi) the "other" is just part of the setting, usually.

Superheros wield amazing powers, skills and devices, making playing them them more like a high-level D&D game, where demigods and epic mortals duke it out for causes incomprehensible to mortal man. Unless you explore a superhero world from a mortal viewpoint, it is all about the amazing battles laced with melodrama. (And exploring a superhero world from a mortal viewpoint would be a great game, I think. A team of non-super cops or military officers tasked with bringing down rogue superhumans would be really interesting.) It is hard to conceive of a power or character that would be so weird that it couldn't find a niche in the superhero world. ("What are we going to do with this evil, tentacled beast from beyond that we destroyed in last month's epic crossover?" "Throw it in the corner with Starro the Conqueror over there.")

In space opera, the "other" is completely normal. People go to a cantina or spaceport and see hordes of alien species. Humans accept that the universe is filled with unusual species and races and while humans are dominant, they easily rub elbows with their non-human counterparts, partner with them, drink Centaurian ale with them, etc. I can still remember watching the first Star Wars and thinking how strange the creatures in the cantina were and being amazed that most humans in the movie were unaffected by the weirdness. But If Mos Eisley is normal, what can be weird?

Now while general sci-fi doesn't really usually have a problem with "the other," (since you have alien species wandering around, doing their alien things) it can be interesting to introduce a horrific, evil, other element into a sci-fi game. Think Alien or Predator, here. But that only really works if the humans have never encountered other aliens before.

 

[BobProbst]

interesting points -- though in SWe4 we do get to see Luke's reaction to the cantina which is quite uncomfortable and equally bewildered as the viewers were.

I'd make a slightly different distinction: In CoC and Conan, there is a sense of impermanence -- one can succeed but is all too aware that any successes are temporary at best. In CoC, there is the knowledge that there are powers that are beyond our comprehension and ability to defeat -- at best we can merely delay or hope to shield the rest of humanity from the horrors for as long as possible. In Conan, the wieght of history bears down on the players. We will all be forgotten and know that the golden age of Hyboria will ultimately fail. We merely have the opportunity to live extraordinary lives while we still live!

D&D assumes that there can be a "happily ever after"; success can be sweeping and world changing.

I must admit that while the idea of the idylic has a conceptual appear ultimately it is the struggle that appeals to me so much more... And to quote a favorite song:

To dream the impossible dream,
to fight the unbeatable foe,
to bear with unbearable sorrow,
to run where the brave dare not go...

To right the unrightable wrong,
to love pure and chaste from afar,
to try when your arms are too weary
to reach the unreachable star!

This is my quest --
to follow that star
no matter how hopeless,
no matter how far --
To fight for the right
without question or pause,
to be willing to march into hell
for a heavenly cause!

And I know
if I'll only be true
to this glorious quest
that my heart
will be peaceful and calm
when I'm laid to my rest.

And the world will be better for this
that one man, scorned and covered with scars,
still strove with his last ounce of courage
To reach the unreachable stars!

 

[Mark van Dyk]

Of course

D&D assumes that there can be a "happily ever after"; success can be sweeping and world changing.

I must admit that while the idea of the idylic has a conceptual appear ultimately it is the struggle that appeals to me so much more... And to quote a favorite song:

]

Of course. Yet there is nothing wrong with achieving this dream, then going on to something else...

 

[InzeladunMaster]

I'd make a slightly different distinction: In CoC and Conan, there is a sense of impermanence -- one can succeed but is all too aware that any successes are temporary at best. In CoC, there is the knowledge that there are powers that are beyond our comprehension and ability to defeat -- at best we can merely delay or hope to shield the rest of humanity from the horrors for as long as possible.

In Conan, the wieght of history bears down on the players. We will all be forgotten and know that the golden age of Hyboria will ultimately fail. We merely have the opportunity to live extraordinary lives while we still live!

D&D assumes that there can be a "happily ever after"; success can be sweeping and world changing.

I think that is an excellent distinction, Bob. It also illustrates yet another reason I grew dissatisfied with DnD. I much prefer the CoC and Conan approaches. They seem stronger and much less "Hollywood". I particularly love history and the part it plays in Conan.

 

[BobProbst]

Of course. Yet there is nothing wrong with achieving this dream, then going on to something else...

I must ponder on this . . . there is a reason why this has grown less appealing but I'm unsure what it is.

Why would I rather fight the unbeatable foe than beat the unfightable . . . wait, that's not right -- you know what I'm going for here.

 

[Fyrestryke]

Saturday, June 5, 2004

Not to sidetrack all the discussion, but what do you guys wanna play at the next Saturday session? I can be ready for the Undead Hunter Campaign: Part Duex.

 

[thormagni]

I'd be up for Undead Hunters Part Deux, and get ready for Judge Dredd for some later Saturday. I gathered that if there was a consensus of which game to play from my list, that was the one.

Not to sidetrack all the discussion, but what do you guys wanna play at the next Saturday session? I can be ready for the Undead Hunter Campaign: Part Duex.