D&D 3E/3.5 Savage Species and 3.5 aren't totally compatible.

[marshaldwm]

I hate to be negative, but I run a SS campaign, andthe whole book is hardly 3.0 compatible IMHO. Some templates, and monster clases are so brutally overpowered that the whole book has to be taken with a gvrain of salt and adjusted by the DM.

3.0 or 3.5 really don't seem to matter, the books's idea is awesome, but in execution it is really poor. Still, I like it and use it, I just go over every template and character submission with a fine tooth comb.

 

[Vivictus]

Yup, just went over a lot of stuff and most monsters in Savage Species of mid to high level have been completely changed in the 3.5 monster manual. The Rakshasa is a big one. It's not longer killed by blessed crossbow bolts, and instead of it being immunte to spells of level 8 and lower it jus tnow has an insanely high spell resistance instead, something like 28+class levels. Ugh. My SS book is pretty useless now. Uses 3.5 rules but not the actual monsters. WotC should have waited and released it AFTER 3.5, not merely two months before. Stupid, stupid move.

 

[Vivictus]

The pixie. I had a friend this week wanting to make a pixie. The Level Adjustment for it in Savage Species is +5. In the new 3.5 MM it's either +4 (without Otto's Dance) or +6 (with Otto's Dance). Man, they need to fix this and give us new creature templates FAST! It's too much damn work trying to rewrite the entire thing. Sheesh.

 

[jgsugden]

If you want something balanced, don't use SS.

Monster PCs have abilities that are not balanced when given to a PC. You can't balance the PC by making him weak in terms of hit dice and strong in terms of powerful abilites.

Take, for instance, the ghaele. If you play a savage species ghaele up from 1st level, it really unbalances a party. Why? because it has a bunch of abilities that PCs are not meant to possess.

First of all, it can fly really fast over great distances. They just made a huge effort to take high speed flight away from PCs in 3.5.

Then, look at the gaze attack. This really screws up combats. The enemies start fleeing the PCs instead of fighting. This makes combat into a hassle.

The DR is also a problem. When you give DR to a monster, the PCs often can muster up a way to bypass it. On the other hand, monsters and NPCs have less resources than the party. They will rarely be able to bypass the DR. This makes these abilities far more powerful in the hands of PCs. In very few situations will a ghaele's DR be different than a 34th level barbarian's DR. This makes them invulnerable to creatures with low damage, but multiple attacks and disproportionately vulnerable to creatures with fewer, yet stronger, attacks.

The flip side of this problem is the low hit points / hit dice of the ghaele PC. At medium or high level, the ghaele PC will start dying at a fast rate. Enemy spellcasters will hit it with PW: Kill, Blasphemy, etc ... Enemy fighters will take it down in one full round of combat. An enemy rogue might get it with one well placed sneak attack.

You can't balance a character by giving it great strengths and great weaknesses. You'll either need to accept that SS creatures will be out of balance in many ways at all times, or decide not to use them.

 

[Vivictus]

Having played up to a level 13 ghaele before and my fiance currently playing one at level 4, I haven't seen any balancing issues at all yet to be honest. Every ability a ghael possesses can be duplicated (or very nearly) by many simple spells anyway. The "at will" powers it gains really doesn't change much either. So it can cast Cure Light Wounds at will. That just removes the need for the party to spend a few hundred gold on a wand for curing after a fight. Flight (fly or teleport spell). As for the gaze, it's more like having the fear spell put on you and a permanency cast, though a bit more powerful. The new Damage Reduction is what bothers me a bit, but seeing that my current campain is a planar campaign, that DR vs Evil isn't hard to bypass since half the things they will be fighting will have the Evil descriptor in it anyway most likely. Sure, they are powerful, but by level 20 they have merely 10 hit dice, only 4 feats, low saves and much fewer skill ranks (max rank 13). Considering now that they cast spells as a cleric and also get full access to domains though, the ghael does seem over powered in a way considering that up to level 14 it's pretty much a full cleric (no turn undead or holy aura though). But as any monster PC, the player makes it with the understanding that if it becomes too much, then they have to ditch it and create a new one. I haven't seen this yet either from a DM or a Player perspective.

 

[gfunk]

Having played up to a level 13 ghaele before and my fiance currently playing one at level 4, I haven't seen any balancing issues at all yet to be honest.

I'm currently playing a Level 5 Trumpet Archon and also have not found balance issues. On the contrary, I have been smacked down to negative hp on more than one occasion due to my relatively measly HD.

The lack of feats is a great weakness, but the high natural armor helps to offset this somewhat.

I do heavily rely on my trumpet to paralyze foes however. Unfortunately, it will soon increase in its radius (right now at 5 ft) which will soon make it unusable b/c the party members will be affected as well.

 

[The Little Raven]

SS said it was partially compatible from the beginning. There was never a statement that is was perfectly compatible.

It said it would use a standard skill/feat gain for monsters (which it does), apply the new skill changes (which it does for the most part).

The "rules" of Savage Species can just as easily be applied to a 3.5 monster as a 3.0 monster. However, none of the work is done for you.

 

[jasamcarl]

I hate to be negative, but I run a SS campaign, andthe whole book is hardly 3.0 compatible IMHO. Some templates, and monster clases are so brutally overpowered that the whole book has to be taken with a gvrain of salt and adjusted by the DM.

3.0 or 3.5 really don't seem to matter, the books's idea is awesome, but in execution it is really poor. Still, I like it and use it, I just go over every template and character submission with a fine tooth comb.

Really? Which templates specifically?

 

[jasamcarl]

If you want something balanced, don't use SS.

Monster PCs have abilities that are not balanced when given to a PC. You can't balance the PC by making him weak in terms of hit dice and strong in terms of powerful abilites.

Take, for instance, the ghaele. If you play a savage species ghaele up from 1st level, it really unbalances a party. Why? because it has a bunch of abilities that PCs are not meant to possess.

First of all, it can fly really fast over great distances. They just made a huge effort to take high speed flight away from PCs in 3.5.

Then, look at the gaze attack. This really screws up combats. The enemies start fleeing the PCs instead of fighting. This makes combat into a hassle.

The DR is also a problem. When you give DR to a monster, the PCs often can muster up a way to bypass it. On the other hand, monsters and NPCs have less resources than the party. They will rarely be able to bypass the DR. This makes these abilities far more powerful in the hands of PCs. In very few situations will a ghaele's DR be different than a 34th level barbarian's DR. This makes them invulnerable to creatures with low damage, but multiple attacks and disproportionately vulnerable to creatures with fewer, yet stronger, attacks.

The flip side of this problem is the low hit points / hit dice of the ghaele PC. At medium or high level, the ghaele PC will start dying at a fast rate. Enemy spellcasters will hit it with PW: Kill, Blasphemy, etc ... Enemy fighters will take it down in one full round of combat. An enemy rogue might get it with one well placed sneak attack.

You can't balance a character by giving it great strengths and great weaknesses. You'll either need to accept that SS creatures will be out of balance in many ways at all times, or decide not to use them.

Their hp is really no worse than a wizard of equivilant level. The power word spell is a problem, but otherwise the Ghaele works as a utility caster. You are correct in general though, it doesn't really work as a pc, though i can't really imagine a case where it would be overpowered, simply because none of its spell-like abilities are offensivly oriented at low-levels.

Personally, I use a lot of the monster classes to present scaled npcs. The CR entry is what salvages a lot of these. But many others, specifically the melee-oriented classes such as ogre and minotaur, are perfectly suitable for player use.

 

[marshaldwm]

Really? Which templates specifically?

#1 broken template is the Feral template.

+1 LA for

+6 Natural armor
Claw attacks(better than half-dragon)
Darkvision
Fast Healing
With more levels, rend, rake, pounce, improved Grab.
Balanced ability scores, boost str, -4 Int.
d10 hit points.

Man, I want to try out a Feral Sorceror, or Bard( the munchkin in me can actually see some vague justification)

A Bard with a chain shirt would start out at 20 ac at level one, even without dex. Two claw attacks for 1d8 plus strength per round, healing 2 hit points per round. Nigh unstoppable. Sure, hs skills are a bit weak, but at least charisma does not take a hit, and with 6 skills per level, I can survive.

Now by all the balance rules I see in SS, this should at least be a +3. maybe +4(though I think even +2 is not so bad)

SS, and mny monster characters need to be looked over very carefully.

DWM