It was set with the 3.5 rules, sure, but the monsters in there that are also in the 3.5 Monster Manual aren't always equal. Take the Ghaele for example. First off, the original one in the first MM had a DR of 25/+3. The one in Savage species shows it at 10/+2. However, the new 3.5 book shows it with a DR of 10/Cold Iron AND Evil! Now that is significantly more powerful that the DR 10/+2 it would get in Savage Species at level 19 (DR 5/+1 at level 10). So, am I to just change it at level 10 to give 5/evil OR cold Iron, and then at level 19 change it to DR 10/Evil AND Cold Iron? That in and of itself would seem to raise the ECL by a level just for requiring TWO specific weapon components to bypass damage reduction. Can someone offer any advice on this one please? Sean, if you're reading this, perhaps you've already come up with some workaround for Savage Species characters that now have much better DR's in 3.5? Thanks!
D&D 3E/3.5 Savage Species and 3.5 aren't totally compatible.
- Thread starter Vivictus
- Start date
I'm playing a Trumpet Archon and am expericing similar problems trying to convert my PC to 3.5.
I think that your idea of allowing DR cold iron or evil at 10th and then cold iron and evil at 20th is a good one. Keep in mind that, unlike other Outisders, the Ghaele does not enjoy a significant hp boost.
For instance, the Trumpet Archon gained +10 Con between 3.0 and 3.5 and thus nearly doubled his hit points.
However, Ghaeles have a low con and low hp and their HD never reaches beyond 10. This will cause serious problems at higher levels especially against Clerics and Fiends who can cast Blasphemy. Barring your SR you have an excellent chance of being paralzyzed or killed by this spell.
I can tell you from the standpoint of the Trumpet Archons I have gained the following:
1. +10 Con
2. +2 racial modifier for my Aura of Meanace
3. Actual clerical domain slots
4. DR changes from +1 to evil
The Ghaele seems to have gained better DR and Domain slots but not much else. Personally, I think that it is relatively balanced after your proposed DR changes.
As always, Celestials tend to be powerhouses at lower levels but they will suffer (esp. the Ghaele) at higher levels.
I think that your idea of allowing DR cold iron or evil at 10th and then cold iron and evil at 20th is a good one. Keep in mind that, unlike other Outisders, the Ghaele does not enjoy a significant hp boost.
For instance, the Trumpet Archon gained +10 Con between 3.0 and 3.5 and thus nearly doubled his hit points.
However, Ghaeles have a low con and low hp and their HD never reaches beyond 10. This will cause serious problems at higher levels especially against Clerics and Fiends who can cast Blasphemy. Barring your SR you have an excellent chance of being paralzyzed or killed by this spell.
I can tell you from the standpoint of the Trumpet Archons I have gained the following:
1. +10 Con
2. +2 racial modifier for my Aura of Meanace
3. Actual clerical domain slots
4. DR changes from +1 to evil
The Ghaele seems to have gained better DR and Domain slots but not much else. Personally, I think that it is relatively balanced after your proposed DR changes.
As always, Celestials tend to be powerhouses at lower levels but they will suffer (esp. the Ghaele) at higher levels.
Ok, they've done enough changes to the 3.5 MM that it pretty much turns Savage Species into a $30 doorstop unless you care to convert everything over yourself, which isn't really all that easy. The rules in SS are decent but not defined enough to accurately do this I don't think, especially with how the new DR rules work, being much more powerful than the last ones. I hope to hell that WotC puts up a list of all the monsters in SS and how to convert them with the 3.5 MM creatures.
Also, I was looking at the Astral Deva. In SS it appears it gets +2 more CHA than the actual creature gets and in SS it completely removes any DEX increases, even though the Deva should have +8 to DEX.
Another thing I notice... In the 3.5 MM it states that creatures don't get ability score increases every 4 hit dice until they get to the Advancement stage (beyond what they normally are already at), because it's already figured into their stats. But in SS, creatures advancing their hit dice DO get this form what I can tell. Is this supposed to just be a minor PC "perk" or something? I hate it when rules contradict each other for either PC or NPC.
Also, I was looking at the Astral Deva. In SS it appears it gets +2 more CHA than the actual creature gets and in SS it completely removes any DEX increases, even though the Deva should have +8 to DEX.
Another thing I notice... In the 3.5 MM it states that creatures don't get ability score increases every 4 hit dice until they get to the Advancement stage (beyond what they normally are already at), because it's already figured into their stats. But in SS, creatures advancing their hit dice DO get this form what I can tell. Is this supposed to just be a minor PC "perk" or something? I hate it when rules contradict each other for either PC or NPC.
Vivictus said:
Personally, I think it will be relatively well balanced as long as you institute all the changes on your monstrous PC after the 3.0 to 3.5 conversion.
Vivictus said:
Ay caramba! Don't even get me started on the Astral Deva, that is one seriously screwed up progression. In the appendix of SS, it has all the ability score mods summarized for the Deva, and as far as I can tell they are correct. However, for some reason, in the actual progression they got it all backwards.
Not only are the ability score increases incorrect, but Electricty resistance is messed up. The devas get Electrical immunity first, THEN electricty resistance? WTF? Obviously, the progression should be reversed.
Also, the Deva inexplicably becomes large size at 19th level though they are not in the 3.0 or 3.5 MM. It seems that the designers got confused because an Astral Deva progressed to 19 HD becomes large -- they probably saw 19th level and thought of the same thing.
Vivictus said:
Yes, I think it is a PC perk. SS PCs have a leg-up over their monstrous counterparts in a number of ways. Not only do they get ability score bumps every 4 levels, but they are also far better equipped than a comparable monster of their CR.
One thing I never could quite understand in SS is why exactly ECL is required. I mean look at the core classes -- a Sorcerer for example,
1) Crappy HD (d4)
2) Crappy skill points (2+)
3) Crappy skill selection
However, they get awesome spellcasting power which compensates for this. Yet, for PCs there is no ECL adjustment! So a 20th level sorcerer (20 HD) is not 20 HD + 10 ECL for a 30th effective level!
My point is simply this. Gaining levels (HD) in core classes nets you a lot more than simply more hit points, better saves, and skill points. You also get a whole slew of abilities. So if these classes don't get ECL why should monstrous PCs suffer such high ECL penalties?
gfunk said:
Because monsters often have better abilities than PCs of equivalent HD. For example, look at a troll. It has 6 HD. In a one-on-one fight between it and a 6th level fighter, who do you think would be likely to win? If you had a choice between having the abilities of a troll, or the abilities of a 6th level fighter, which would you choose, assuming you'd be the same effective character level either way?
Obviously, it's a no-brainer - the troll's abilities are clearly better. Which is why a level adjustment is needed to balance it for play as a PC.
gtJormungand
First Post
JLXC said:
Because SS was supposed to be somewhat 3.5 compliant...
