Savage Species- is there something wrong with me!?

[Mercule]

*shrug* That's fine for Planescape, or the Great Wheel cosmology (which is no longer the assumed standard), but those sorts of things are not going to be true for every campaign world.

Guess it depends on how you look at it.

If you take WotC at their word, Greyhawk is the default/assumed setting. Greyhawk uses the Great Wheel cosmology.

Personally, after reading PlaneScape, I thought "People actually play this setting?" Still, the basic cosmology behind it has been unchanged, for the most part, since 1E. That includes Dretch as the starting point for demonkind.

Then again, 3E also seems to have this unstated bylaw that says, "Forget about previous editions. If it wasn't mentioned in 3E, it doesn't exist."

While I can understand that to a certain degree (how much archived information do the developers need to keep?), things shouldn't be changed _implicitly_. If Vrocks no longer evolve from Dretches, fine, make it _explicit_. Doing anything else is a bit like finding a referrence to Elminster's funeral, and no mention of how he died, or when, or anything else.

 

[Vocenoctum]

I like SS a lot, though it feels overpriced.

My problems:
1) as has been said before, some monsters should have just had their progression start at a higher level. For instance, Vrock's might be minimum 10th and run to 20th. In a campaign lower than 10th, they're just not suitable. (as a random number, don't know if 10 would work)
2) I think taking HD, then adding Power Level to it makes for an odd ECL. A single HD is not equal to a single level of a character class. Most of the powers aren't either. They make this point when talking about having to give things the Acid Test, but still seems a little odd to me. This system will still work for the standard ECL though.
3) The Monster Classes are a great idea that I've thought of for a while, but I don't think they were executed right. They start from the premise of running the gamut from 1st level until the Total ECL of the monster. This doesn't work well for my tastes.
4) they use ECL interchangably in places. At times it means the "effective levels" of the monster's powers, at other times it means the Total ECl of the monsters powers and HD.
5) most of the classes focus on very high level monsters. I'd have prefered more low-intermediate level stuff.


What I'd have prefered are two things;
1) A monstrous class doesn't have to be identical to the basic monster!
2) For some races, they SHOULDN'T be consectutive levels.

As part of number 1, I'd have them gain HD at every level. To balance out the powers, you might have to spread them out over more levels, or downgrade the powers of the monster. A mindlfayer PC might never be able to mindblast at will for instance. But having a 5th level character with 1 HD is just silly to me. As well, a lot of the really high level ones end up with 10HD at 20th level or whatnot.

But, for races like the drow, or Svifneblin (not mentioned in this product) and even the lizardfolk, I'd say they each have to take Race Class at level one, then the next one at level 4 or 5 for instance.
It'd give you more ability to scale the powers to the game power, instead of having a load of powers right off that might be too much, then their utility dwindles to nothingness later on.

 

[Hardhead]

While I can understand that to a certain degree (how much archived information do the developers need to keep?), things shouldn't be changed _implicitly_. If Vrocks no longer evolve from Dretches, fine, make it _explicit_. Doing anything else is a bit like finding a referrence to Elminster's funeral, and no mention of how he died, or when, or anything else.

Thanks, that's what I was trying to say. I just didn't say it as well.


On the subject of allowing multiclassing:

If someone allows multiclassing, they've got to watch out for the weapon and armor proficiency. For instance, Ogres are only proficient with simple weapons, while Minotaurs are proficient with marital weapons. This is a major balance for the Ogre, which otherwise gets a larger strength bonus than the minotaur over fewer levels. If you allow someone to take their second level as a fighter and pick up heavy armor proficiency, it's going to send their AC through the roof, which will seriously unbalance the game.

The Ogre and Minotaur are a good example of why multiclassing might be a bad idea. They're about balnaced now. I think the Ogre would be hands-down better if you allowed multiclassing, since it'd negate the Minotaur's better armor and weapon proficiency.

SS was balanced with no multiclassing in mind, changing it will probably have balance repercussions.

 

[Vocenoctum]

For instance, Ogres are only proficient with simple weapons, while Minotaurs are proficient with marital weapons.

You saying Minotaurs beat their wives? that's not very nice!

 

[Sagan Darkside]

You saying Minotaurs beat their wives? that's not very nice!

Well, they are all just a bunch of bullies.

SD

 

[buzzard]

What a wonderful idea for new roleplaying supplement. I just can't wait until they come up with a book where you can play actually roleplay gods. Better yet maybe a book full of prestige classes where you can get all 25s for all your attributes and cast 15th level wizard spells. Seriously folks... I'm all for options but some of these "crunchy bits" are ways for power gamers to circumvent game balance.

Amusing that the 1st edition land is heard from (hence the '25 in all stats' line).
Monster races and high stats are old 3rd Ed. Hat. I reccommend reading the DMG (3rd Ed. of course). This stuff has been in there for some time. Savage Species is just a more detailed and systematic approach.

If you have no knowlege of the context of the rules, your complaints about them sound asinine.

buzzard

 

[seankreynolds]

1) A monstrous class doesn't have to be identical to the basic monster!

If it's not, then "ogre" no longer means just one thing. If you write an adventure and say "this room has four ogres," players and DMs will wonder, "Are these MM ogres? Or are they ogres built with Savage Species"?

Terminology means something in the new D&D. A word (or spell, or monster) means one thing in one place and another in another, you can't tell what's going on.

 

[Vocenoctum]

If it's not, then "ogre" no longer means just one thing. If you write an adventure and say "this room has four ogres," players and DMs will wonder, "Are these MM ogres? Or are they ogres built with Savage Species"?

Terminology means something in the new D&D. A word (or spell, or monster) means one thing in one place and another in another, you can't tell what's going on.

No, since we're talking the Ogre Class.

An ogre with 3 levels of fighter is different than an ogre with 3 levels of wizard.
This would simply mean you might have a level 5 Ogre Class or something of the sort. He's physically an ogre, but his abilities are not the same.
So, you might have 4 ogres, with their Level 4 OgreClass/ level3 Fighter boss. Doesn't seem unbalanced to me. It's meant more to compare to the power level of comparable Class levels.

 

[Eridanis]

He's physically an ogre, but his abilities are not the same.

THen why would you still call it an "ogre" if they're two different things? You way results in a lot more verbiage than necessary, and would confuse some people, with no benefit.

If you want to create a monster class progression that's different from the actual monster, then rename it the "ogre master" or something more creative than that. Then, there's a clean distinction. Don't add more layers than are necessary.

 

[WizarDru]

THen why would you still call it an "ogre" if they're two different things? You way results in a lot more verbiage than necessary, and would confuse some people, with no benefit.

If you want to create a monster class progression that's different from the actual monster, then rename it the "ogre master" or something more creative than that. Then, there's a clean distinction. Don't add more layers than are necessary.

Because many monster abilities and powers operate under a different set of rules when in the hands of a NPC versus a PC. The ability to cast Teleport without Error at will is an ability a monster uses once or twice during a combat, likely the last time he uses it during his lifetime. A PC may use it once or twice every combat. The same applies to, say, Fireball at will, or energy drain or any number of other abilities.

An Ogre with 5 levels of fighter as a monster is not the same as one who is a pc, but it's not an issue, because the only one who'll need to understand the difference is the ogre's player.