Savage template to replace Barbarian class

[Jens]

Edit: You'll find an updated version near the bottom of the page

I've always thought it was weird that the Barbarian was a class you could advance in. It would make sense if all savages/barbarians were warriors, but what about the shamans, hunters, scouts, witchdoctors, etc? Instead of making a whole lot of new classes, why not make it a template?

Here's my 1st draft for a (+0 ecl) Savage template. It is mostly written with the difference between fighters and Barbarians in mind and I'm sure there are plenty of problems with it. So let's hear what you have to say, I'm especially keen to hear about balance problems:


Savage Template

Restriction (optional):
Alignment: A savage cannot have a lawful alignment.

Benefits

• Increased Hit Die: A savage’s hit die is increased by one step: From d4 to d6, d6 to d8, d8 to d10, d10 to d12, d12 to d14, etc.
• Extra class skills: The skills Intimidate, Intuit Direction, Listen, and Wilderness Lore are always considered class skills to a savage.
• Skill points: A savage gains 2 extra skill points per level (8 extra at 1st level)
• Access to the savage-exclusive feats Rage, Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge, Damage Reduction, Greater Rage. These feats may be taken as fighter bonus feats by a savage fighter.
• Weapon proficiencies: The handaxe, greatclub and all bows are considered simple weapons to a savage. The double axe, urgrosh, and net are considered martial weapons.

Disadvantages

• Illiteracy: Savages do not automatically know how to read or write. A savage must pay 2 skill points to gain the ability to any language he is able to speak.
• Limited skills: A savage’s maximum ranks with the skills Alchemy, Appraise, Craft (any technical), Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Forgery, Gather Information, Knowledge (all), Open Lock, Scry, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device are 2 lower than normal for his class and level. That means he cannot have cross-class ranks in these skills at level 1.
• Skill advancement: At least half of a savage’s total skill points must spent on the skills Animal Empathy, Balance, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Intuit Direction, Jump, Listen, Ride, Swim, Wilderness Lore.
• Weapon proficiencies: All crossbows are considered martial weapons to a savage.
• Armor proficiencies: A savage cannot gain heavy armor proficiency as a class benefit. That means he can only get it by taking it as a feat.
• Spell limitation: A savage’s spellcasting ability is reduced by one daily spell of each level. If this results in “0” daily spells of a level, the savage can only cast spells of that level if he has a bonus spell of that level.

Becoming Civilized

• When gaining a level, a savage who is literate may become civilized.
• Benefits from being civilized such as higher maximum skill ranks do not apply for the first civilized level. A civilized savage is able to cast the full normal number of spells per day.
• If a savage chooses to become civilized, he loses all savage benefits (including access to and use of exclusive feats) except for the extra hit points he has gained from having an increased hit die. His weapon and armor proficiencies do not change.
• A civilized savage can go back to being savage, but does not benefit from savage benefits such as increased hit die and extra class skills during the first new level as a savage.

Savage Feats

• Rage: As the barbarian ability. Useable once per day plus once per day per 4 full points of BAB. Requires non-lawful alignment.
• Fast Movement: As the barbarian ability (only usable in medium armor or less).
• Uncanny Dodge: As the barbarian ability. This feat can be taken up to 3 times and requires fast movement and a BAB of +2 plus +4 per additional time it is taken. The first time this feat is taken, it gives UD (Dex bonus to AC). The second time it gives UD (can’t be flanked). The third time it gives UD (+1 against traps per 3 full points of BAB above +7).
• Damage Reduction 1/-: As the barbarian ability. This feat stacks with itself. Requires rage ability and a base fortitude save of +6 the first time and another +2 each subsequent time it is taken. [Note: House rule on saves implies that base saves can never be better than Good. Alternately, require a BAB of +9 the first time and another +3 each subsequent time.]
• Greater Rage: As the barbarian ability. Requires the rage ability and a BAB of +14. If it is taken twice (requires BAB +18 (+20 if replacing fortitude requirements for DR with BAB requirements)), the savage no longer becomes winded after raging.

Savage Fighter compared to a Barbarian
Savage Fighter: 1st Rage, 1st Fast Movement (character feat frees up fighter feat at 4th), 2nd UD1, 6th UD2, 8th DR1, 10th UD3, 12th DR2, 14th Greater Rage, 16th DR3, 18th GreaterRage2, 20th DR4. Total 11 feats.
Result: 1st level character feat delayed until 4th level, Uncanny Dodge (can’t be flanked) delayed 1 level (6th). DR 1/- is 3 levels early (8th), DR 2/- is 2 levels early (12th), DR 3/- is 1 level early (16th), No longer winded after rage is 2 levels early (18th). Can take Weapon Specialization feat from 4th level. Restricted use of half of skill points.

Other character classes
Spellcasters: Balanced by fewer daily spells. This weakness is 'softest' on sorcerers, but I think that's reasonable.
Non-spellcasters (foghter and rogue): The fighter is covered above. The rogue will gain HPs but the restriction in usage of skill points will hurt. Scouty Savage Rogue/Rangers with Fast Movement will be mean, though.

Raging Savage Orc Warriors
Nasty. I know

 

[Nifft]

Weapon proficiencies: The handaxe, greatclub and all bows are considered simple weapons to a savage. The double axe, urgrosh, and net are considered martial weapons.

I like everything except this. Racial and background proficiencies ought to take care of this stuff -- I'd just give a bonus Handaxe proficency if the first character level is Savage.

I'm going to hurt my players with a Savage Sorcerer who's got Fast Movement and UD (dex bonus to AC).

Thanks!

-- Nifft

 

[shivamuffin]

cool!

Great Idea! Easier to make baddies than doing all the work to make a barbarian orc or something.

Michael

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

Er..seems a little strong to me. I'd much rather play a Savage Fighter than a Barbarian. I'd just not spend feats on damage reduction and spend them on something useful

 

[Ace]

I like this concept but I would allow a person to move from Savage to Civilized on a class by class Basis. It might work really well if you template the class and not the character.

Good idea though I really must test it

 

[PeterLind]

I like this idea. What do you think about a template for Noble too?

 

[Jens]

Thanks for your comments. I won't revise anything just yet. More criticism, please!

About weapon proficiencies:

I like everything except this. Racial and background proficiencies ought to take care of this stuff -- I'd just give a bonus Handaxe proficency if the first character level is Savage.

Maybe I went overboard here with greatclub and bows; the others I quite like (how about changing the rapier to exotic?). The point here is to make it work like racial/background stuff.

Great Idea! Easier to make baddies than doing all the work to make a barbarian orc or something.

Thank you. What problems do you see with it, balance, flavor, etc?

Originally posted by MeepoTheMighty
Er..seems a little strong to me. I'd much rather play a Savage Fighter than a Barbarian. I'd just not spend feats on damage reduction and spend them on something useful

Yes, that is a problem when giving more flexibility and still making it possible to get the same as before, it becomes easy to trade out a 'weak' ability for something stronger. Do you have any ideas for weakening the template or the savage fighter?

I considered things like removing the scaling from Rage, and instead require the character to take Extra Rage to get more uses. I think it would be more balanced with other feats that way. The reason I didn't do it that way was to make it fit the original progression and make to number of feats needed equal a fighter's bonus feats.

In return, Damage Reduction 1+2+3 could be bundled into one feat giving DR proportionately with base Fortitude save (or BAB). If both were done, the Savage Fighter would be weaker initially (more feats required to keep up with barbarian) but come out as strong in the end.

Do you have any other ideas?

Originally posted by Ace
I like this concept but I would allow a person to move from Savage to Civilized on a class by class Basis. It might work really well if you template the class and not the character.

Good idea though I really must test it

Thank you.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Do you mean that I should be able to play a Savage Fighter/Civilized Wizard/Savage Ranger? If that's what you mean, then I don't want that. The point of the template is that the character is savage because that's what he *is*, not what he *does*. But maybe I misunderstand? If so, please explain to me.

Originally posted by PeterLind
I like this idea. What do you think about a template for Noble too?

Thanks again

I think it can be done... haven't thought about it before just now. I would probably base it on the difference between Fighter and the NPC class. But not here

 

[Technik4]

Unorthodox Restrictions

In general I like your benefits. The one point here is I don't think savages are necessarily more "skillful" than "civilized" people. Maybe reduce bonus skill points to what a human gets (resulting in humans getting all the skill points you intedned, but races with a lot of skill bonuses, not).

I like your way of making some proficiencies "seem" martial or exotic, but it seems like a clunky mechanic. Do savage clerics deserve to use the great club? Or would it be such a big deal for them to use a club? What about savage rogues? As someone else said, maybe you could give them a free wpn prof in a certain subset (this ability would work like the bard's....).

As far as disadvantages I have some bigger points of contention. Limiting someone's skill choices is rarely a good balancing act, especially if you are saying they "must" take certain skills. I would remove all skill-related disadvantages. The heavy armor restriction is good, keep that and illiteracy as the disadvantages. I would also argue against the spellcasting limitation. Savage Druids, imo, would be more common than regular druids, and shouldn't they be just as powerful, spell-wise?

As for the weapon changes...what are the chances a savage rogue will find a rapier in the wild? Or any sort of savage finding a crossbow? The point of their classification as simple is that, if they defeat some warriors and find these devices, they will be able to figure out how to use them. And they will probably find them rather distasteful (being savages). I would add some sort of general role-playing restriction, maybe all savage distrust technology? And of course what savage would want a thin flimsy blade like the rapier?

I don't think the civilized option is necessary. This seems like mostly a lifting of the skill point ban (which I thought limited creativity anyway). My idea of savage means you are never really civilized. In short-lived races you just don't have enough time to adjust (realistically, and hollwood aside). As far as the long-lived races like elves, you would never really be accepted back into that society, and I doubt a savage (wood) elf would want to try anyway.

Finally the feats are well done. My final estimation is that all these changes are balanced, as long as the ecl template goes up to 1. Perhaps as a balance, give savages +1 BAB and a full d12 of hit dice, though that may be too much. I have to run to work and don't have time to compare a savage ftr 1 to a ftr 2.

These are just my thoughts, overall I think its an awesome idea, I am just always in favor of more options for the player.

Technik

 

[Jens]

Lots of good points from Technik4. (I won't quote, it's too long )

To start at the end: I want this to be ECL +0. Savages should be good at some things but poor at others when compared to others. I don't think they should be 'super' in general.

That means I have to find disadvantages to balance the advantages I want to give. Mainly I want to increase HPs and give them to have some sort of advantage with certain skills (the list is not definite). I agree that these advantages alone would be about ECL +1 (the armor restriction isn't that hard to live with) so I have to find significant disadvantages to keep the ECL at +0.

That's where the spellcasting reduction and the skill restrictions come in. Most classes cast spells (with the barbarian out of the picture, only fighters and rogues do not) and you can never get too many daily castings so I think the reduction is a significant disadvantage.

The skill restrictions are mostly for flavor; I want a savage to be limited in 'civilized' skills. I think the reduction in max ranks is fairly sound, but I agree that the requirement on skill point usage isn't too neat. Any suggestions for a better mechanic? It is mostly meant to be a serious restriction for wizards. I think savage wizards should have a hard time. It particularly hurts rogues as well, but with the extra class skills, it should be easy to make a savage scouty rogue. I think savage rogues focusing on social skills should have a hard time.

Druids: I actually considered excluding Nature based spells (druids, rangers, certain prestige classes) from the spellcasting reduction. But since the skill restriction most likely wouldn't mean anything to them, the extra HPs and feat options would be balanced by nothing. Rangers are not very spell-dependent, so they're not hurt much. Druids are hurt more, maybe too much? How about giving savages shortbow proficiency?

Weapons: I think I won't mess with weapon categories but just give free proficiency in handaxe and possibly shortbow.

Feats: Glad you like them even though they're not written out properly. I think the Rage feat is very powerful as written -- I think I will remove the scaling number of uses (take Extra Rage to get more uses) and then instead bundle the damage reduction. DR would be really powerful at low levels, but later on it's not as significant.

Civilized option not necessary: Removing it may make min/maxing harder (start out as a savage to get the HPs and skills, then become civilized when the spell reduction becomes significant). Instead of removing it, the loss of HPs and skill points could be made retroactive... HPs are easy (+1 per level, lost if civilized) but skills are more difficult. I'll have to think about that.

 

[Technik4]

ECL +0

More Fully Statted Feats:

Fast Movement [Savage General, Savage Fighter Feat]
You are quick on your feet.
Prerequisite: Savage Template
Benefit: You gain +10 speed in light or medium armor, as the barbarian ability.

Barbaric Rage [Savage General, Savage Fighter Feat]
You can use your anger as a weapon against your enemies.
Prerequisite: Savage Template
Benefit: You gain the ability to Rage 1/day as the barbarian ability.

Uncanny Dodge [Savage General, Savage Figter Feat]
You react immediately to danger.
Prerequisite: Savage Template
Benefit: You do not lose your dex bonus, as the barbarian ability. As soon as your total level is 6 you also cannot be flanked, as the barbarian ability.

Uncanny Dodge-Traps [Savage General, Savage Fighter Feat]
You can anticipate nasty surprises.
Prerequisite: Savage Template, BAB +10
Benefit: You get a +1 bonus to your saving throws vs traps, as the barbarian ability. This ability improves for every 3 levels you gain afterwards, up to a maximum of +4.

Damage Reduction [Savage General, Savage Fighter Feat]
You can withstand the weakest of blows without injury.
Prerequisite: Savage Template, BAB +12
Benefit: You gain Damage Reduction 1. This feat may be taken more than once up to a maximum of Damage Reduction 4. Otherwise, as the barbarian ability.

Greater Rage [Savage General, Savage Fighter Feat]
Your bellowing is heroic in amplitude.
Prerequisite: Savage Template, BAB +15
Benefit: Your bonuses while raging become +6 Strength, +6 Constitution, and +3 morale bonus to Will Saves. The -2 AC remains. If your total levels equal or exceed 20, you are also no longer winded after raging.

Savage Skills [Savage General]
You are familiar with the ways of the wild.
Prerequisite: Savage Template
Benefit: The skills Intimidate, Intuit Direction, Listen, and Wilderness Lore are always considered class skills to a savage.

In order to balance fighters with the savage template I suggest requiring that all fighter bonus feats be spent on Savage Fighter Feats. Savage Fighter Feats include the feats above and any feat with "Rage" in the title. In this way, a Savage Fighter becomes a customizable barbarian, not a fighter who can pick and choose which barbarian abilities he likes. A fighter may eventually become almost exactly as the barbarian, as long as he spends one of his feats on the Savage Skills feat.:

1 Barb Fast Move, Rage
2 Barb Uncanny Dodge (Dex)
4 Barb Rage+1
5 Barb Uncanny Dodge (Flank)
8 Barb Rage +1
10 Barb Uncanny Dodge (Traps+1)
11 Barb Damage Reduction +1
12 Barb Rage +1
13 Barb Uncanny Dodge (Traps+1)
14 Barb Damage Reduction +1
15 Barb Greater Rage
16 Barb Unacnny Dodge (Traps+1), Rage +1
17 Barb Damage Reduction +1
19 Barb Uncanny Dodge (Traps+1)
20 Barb Rage +1, Damage Reduction +1, No longer winded.

Total: Fast Movement, Greater Rage 6/day, Uncanny Dodge (Dex, Flank, and Traps +4), Damage Reduction 4.
Skill Total for Avg Int Hero (12): 115


Savage Template
1 Fighter 1 Feat- Fast Movement
2 Fighter 1 Feat- Rage 1/day
4 Fighter 1 Feat- Uncanny Dodge (Dex+Flank)
6 Fighter 1 Feat- Extra Rage (3 total)
8 Fighter 1 Feat- Extra Rage (5 total)
10 Fighter 1 Feat- Uncanny Dodge (Traps)
12 Fighter 1 Feat- Damage Reduction +1
14 Fighter 1 Feat- Damage Reduction +1
16 Fighter 1 Feat- Greater Rage
18 Fighter 1 Feat- Damage Reduction +1
20 Fighter 1 Feat- Damage Reduction +1

Total: Fast Movement, Greater Rage 5/day, Uncanny Dodge (Dex, Flank, Traps +4), Damage Reduction 4.
Skill Total for Avg Int Hero (12): 115

However, there is the problem of balancing all the other classes, for instance the rogue should not receive any bonus skill points, as he already has 8. I suggest the following table:

Class Skill Bonus Savage Template Bonus
+2 +2
+4 +1
+8 +0

Additionally for one feat you can gain the many class skills many savages have, this is most advantageous for the more "civilized" classes, and therefore costs them a feat. The less civilzed (or more natural) classes already have those skills as class skills. Finally the hit die progression never goes higher than d12.

As far as disadvantages, I still don't like balancing extra skills with skills you must take. I propose to assign negatives to certain skills in non-natural environments. A -2 to all charisma related skills and checks when not in a natural environment, and a -4 while in an urban area. Total is -6 in a non-natural city, such as just about every human city, and only -4 while in an elven city in the trees, or a dwarven city in stone.

The other disadvantages would be the necessity of taking heavy armor as a feat, illiteracy, and spell limitation. Though I propose a feat for the more natural spell-casters:

Nature's Magic
You have become in tune with nature and your spell-casting reflects this.
Prerequisite: Savage Template, 5 Ranks in Knowledge [Nature] or Wilderness Lore, ability to cast 1st level arcane or divine spells.
Benefit: You are no longer penalized with 1 fewer spells for every level, and every spell you cast is at +1 caster level while in a natural environment.

The total advantages seem to be a higher hit die, possibly some bonus skill points, and the ability to acquire some interesting feats. Total disadvantages are illiteracy, heavy armor negatives, spell limitation, and the negatives to charisma-based skills when not in a natural environment. ECL +0.

Technik