Savage Tide AP not intriguing me

[Crothian]

Heh. It's a running joke over at CM. They are discussing a PbP game.


I figured it out, but I had an inside track on the conundrum.

Only because you are one of my alts!! You just don't listen like the others do. Not that they really listen eiother.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

My only problem with all the AP's is that they start out great but then by the halfway point get ridiculous. Every one of the AP's ends up with the players teleporting, planar-travelling, and god-slaying by the end. And the pages of each of the last few modules are just filled with page-long enemy stat blocks.

Although perhaps this is just what the "iconic" D&D campaign ends up being and I just really don't like it.

Well, if there's a fourth AP, maybe they'll do something with a clash of nations instead, which will be more terrestrial than than the first three.

 

[GwydapLlew]

Only because you are one of my alts!! You just don't listen like the others do. Not that they really listen either.

*L* We never did get the Gwydion + Crothian picture at Gen Con. Batman + Bruce Wayne...Clark Kent + Superman... there are just some pairings in the world that are too awesome to be allowed to co-exist publicly.

 

[ericlboyd]

My only problem with all the AP's is that they start out great but then by the halfway point get ridiculous. Every one of the AP's ends up with the players teleporting, planar-travelling, and god-slaying by the end. And the pages of each of the last few modules are just filled with page-long enemy stat blocks.

Although perhaps this is just what the "iconic" D&D campaign ends up being and I just really don't like it.

In many ways, it's a function of the monster selection in the Monster Manual. (This is a point I made a while back in a thread that shall not be named. This is the condensed version.)

Dungeon is always pressed for space. A big chunk of space is taken up by stat blocks. The only way to avoid stat blocks is to use monsters straight out of the Monster Manual, without modification. Any significant modifications require printing a full stat block. These are the "rules" set by Paizo, which I think make a lot of sense in that they keep the adventures accessible to everyone.

Therefore, a successful Dungeon adventure author who would like to design an adventure has to think about how many stat blocks he or she will include vs. how many 'default Monster Manual' monsters he or she will include. The more 'default Monster Manual' monsters included, the more room for the adventure and the less word count spent on stat blocks.
Therefore, assuming Dungeon's successful authors know this (implicitly or explicity), a fair amount of Dungeon design is driven by what's available in the Monster Manual. (The Paizo staff certainly knows this and designs the APs accordingly.)

If you do an analysis of the monsters in the Monster Manual for each CR (which is a fair approximation of appropriate threats for each EL) sorted by type, you end up with the following inescapable conclusion: the Monster Manual largely supports battles against dragons (20%) and extraplanar creatures (22%) in Dungeon's high level slot. Therefore, most high level adventures printed in dungeon are likely to be "against the fiends" or "slay the dragon" type of adventures. If you look at Shackled City, Age of Worms, or Savage Tide, they reflect this distribution.

The only way to fix this problem would be to add a new Monster Manual to the core that focused on non-extraplanar high level threats. IMO, such an additional core book might end up looking a lot like the MM4, with its focus on high level NPC drow, yuan-ti, orcs, ogres, etc.

I've attached the spreadsheet I did a while back which lays out the evidence.

--Eric

 

[Welverin]

Age of Worms was very "D&D Classic". Shackled City seemed ... Planescapey. This seems like it would go well with ninjas and pirates and dinosaurs.

Ooh, now all it needs are robots and monkeys!

Just remember, two monkeys are worth three slaves.

 

[James Jacobs]

Eric's post is perfect, and it helps to explain why high-level adventures tend to be about outsiders and dragons (and other planar threats) quite well.

And while the main bad guy in Savage Tide is indeed a powerful outsider, he's not trying to destroy the world. His plan has side effects that will cause many Material World cities to have some major problems if the PCs don't stop him, but it won't be the end of the world.

But I do admit, the high level adventrues in the adventrue paths are tough to do, and tough to keep from being pages and pages of stat blocks. We tried to vary it up in Age of Worms a bit, and we learned a lot from that that we'll be bringing to Savage Tide. In other words, role-playing doesn't die at high level...

But as for teleporting and all that... it's the way the game works. If you design high level adventures and don't incorperate wishes and teleporting and plane hopping... you're setting up an adventure that high-level PCs will not be challenged by. The only answer, really, is to cap a campaign at 13th or 10th level, which is something I've been considering for future Adventure paths.

Which is in and of itself an interesting question. Is there a desire for a less epic campaign out there? Perhaps one that goes from 1st to 12th level over the course of a year, and focuses more on one level = one adventure?

 

[Crothian]

In other words, role-playing doesn't die at high level...

Can we get that on a t-shirt!?!?

 

[GlassJaw]

Is there a desire for a less epic campaign out there? Perhaps one that goes from 1st to 12th level over the course of a year, and focuses more on one level = one adventure?

You must be a mind-reader or something. Wulf and I were just talking about this very idea. I would be thrilled with such an AP. I actually ran the first half of Shackled City and played through some of AoW and while I loved the overall concept, the group just got burned out after a while.

Granted, this may have more to do with my disdain for high-level D&D play in general than the quality of the AP's.

Wulf and I actually started a thread a while back on the "sweet spot" (in our minds) for D&D:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=170445

I think the AP's, if nothing else, have been excellect case studies on "iconic" 1-20 D&D campaigns. They end up being quite formulaic because there are certain "break points" in D&D that absolutely must be accounted for, especially in a module meant for mass distribution (meaning you don't have the power of hand-waving when writing for a publication). I'm not saying that's a bad thing - it's just the way it is.

I'm a firm believer in the theory that rules and mechanics greatly influence the style and tone of play. D&D, especially 3ed, is no different. The problem is compounded with 3ed, however, because not only do the rules affect the style of play, the style of play changes dramatically after 10th or so.

So, yes, I would be elated for an AP that goes from level 1 through 10 or 12 and that has a distinct conclusion.

 

[GwydapLlew]

Which is in and of itself an interesting question. Is there a desire for a less epic campaign out there? Perhaps one that goes from 1st to 12th level over the course of a year, and focuses more on one level = one adventure?

I'm torn about it. I love the adventure arc concepts (1-3 adventures tied together.) I love the adventure path concept (1-20 level campaign.) I wouldn't mind seeing a low-to-mid adventure path, but one of the things about the adventure paths that I enjoy the most is seeing what can be done at the higher levels.

I think I've learned more about adventure design reading SCAP and following the messageboards over at Paizo than I knew in the 20 years I had been DMing prior to the release of the books.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Which is in and of itself an interesting question. Is there a desire for a less epic campaign out there? Perhaps one that goes from 1st to 12th level over the course of a year, and focuses more on one level = one adventure?

James, that is exactly the approach I would love to see.

For a great many of us, D&D stops being "fun" at "high level." High level play has plenty of defenders (and it's been hashed out here many, many times) but as far as I am concerned it is indisputable:

D&D at levels 1-10 (arbitrary border) is a wholly different experience than D&D at levels 11-20.

That's not a value judgement on low-level vs. high-level play. Just that the "feel" of the game completely changes.

I would further argue (allowing some dissent) that the "iconic" D&D experience of dungeon-delving isn't a relevant "play pattern" at high level.

So... YES. An adventure path with pacing devised for a "climax" at 10th-12th level would be fantastic.

Switching gears to Eric's post, there are plenty of creatures in the middle-CR range (say, CR7-CR12) that pose a meaningful challenge when presented in larger numbers-- elementals, magical beasts, giants, and undead. You don't need to go hunting around for CR18 monsters when eight CR12 creatures also works.

It's a terrible thing that space considerations are crimping your creativity. I wish there was some easy solution.