(save ends both)

[Destil]

A Simple question, I don't have anything in the RAW to support how I'd rule it at the moment.

Let's say there's an effect like "Dazed and ongoing 5 fire damage (save ends both)"

Does the warforged bonus to saves vs. ongoing apply?

Can a kalashatar make the save at the beginning of their turn?

My instinct as a DM is to say yes to both.

 

[fba827]

while i too lack any RAW support at the moment, my instinct is the same as yours.

(in your example) dazed and ongoing damage are one unit. a bonus to save vs ongoing damage would apply to this since that is a component. likewise, a bonus save vs dazed would apply to this since dazed is part of the unit.

 

[sfedi]

The problem with that ruling is that it seems to go against the ruling we have for typed damage:

Combined damage is harder to resist, since you have to be resistant to both.

Conversely, you are vulnerable to a combined damage is you are vulnerable to at least one of the components.

But the problem with what I'm saying is that bonuses to saves are harder to come by, and are less powerful than damage resistances.

 

[fba827]

The problem with that ruling is that it seems to go against the ruling we have for typed damage:

Combined damage is harder to resist, since you have to be resistant to both.

Conversely, you are vulnerable to a combined damage is you are vulnerable to at least one of the components.

But the problem with what I'm saying is that bonuses to saves are harder to come by, and are less powerful than damage resistances.

this is true. though i fully admit that i (personally) view condition+damage as being different than damage+damage (two damage types). so i guess that is a factor to consider first as the answer to how you view that will guide your answer to the OP question.

 

[sfedi]

I think the question here is:

Why are we having Condition + Damage or Condition + Condition have a "saves ends both"?
What are they modeling?
Why do we want one save for both?

If the answer is "to make less rolls", then we've just hit the price for that.

If not, if we ARE modeling something, if there IS a reason to have both conditions, then we should be able to answer how a bonus to one of those conditions play out.

I would personally handle the situation this way:

Krull has a +2 bonus vs Slow

Krull is suffering from a Dazed and Slowed save ends both.

He rolls a 9.

Krull gets rid of the Slowd condition, but not from the Dazed condition.

 

[MrMyth]

Everything I see in the rules indicates that if part of the effect involves an element you would get a bonus against, you get the bonus.

The 'combined elements are harder to resist' only applies to combined damage types, which is a completely different scenario and mechanic within the rules.

In this case, a Warforged gets a +2 bonus on saves against ongoing damage. All we have to do is ask, "Is he making a save against ongoing damage?"

The answer is yes; thus, his bonus applies. And so forth.

 

[eamon]

I agree with Destil's instincts. That's also RAW, incidentally, as both buffs apply when their triggers are met.

 

[DracoSuave]

The problem with that ruling is that it seems to go against the ruling we have for typed damage:

Combined damage is harder to resist, since you have to be resistant to both.

However, if you have the effect 'ongoing 10 thunder and lightning damage (save ends)' on you, it's no harder to save against than if you had 'ongoing 10 thunder' or 'ongoing 10 lightning'.

Saving throws aren't damage resistance, last I checked.

Damage Resistance vs multiple types got errata'd because before, multi-typed damage was -easier- to resist, not harder, which went against the intent behind those effects.