Save My Game - Goes off like a bomb!

Kamikaze Midget said:
I dunno, man, that's pretty insulting to some of the DMs who might just have sticking points and bottlenecks for the purpose of their campaign.

It wasn't meant as an insult.

CPU's and DM's both limit their games to what they can handle and what they think is fair.

CPU's don't have any concept of what is fair. CPUs limit their games to what they've been programmed to handle, period. DMs have the ability to expand or change what they can handle, what they think is fair and what they are willing to provide. CPUs don't have the same choice.
 

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Here's a puzzle. To solve it, you have to figure out the answer. If you can't figure out the answer, you have to go a different way.

Puzzles are absolutely fine, provided they don't block the characters' progress. You solve a puzzle, then you get a reward, but you can complete the adventure/save the damsel in distress/prevent the Evil Wizard from Blowing Up The World/stop the Mad Cultists from Summoning the Elder Horror or whatever else without solving the puzzles.

Puzzles are only a problem if the players can't solve the puzzle and can't progress without solving it, see? But to a certain extent, with any reasonably challenging puzzle, yes, you do have to figure out what the DM's thinking. And because this is a game rather than a classroom and the DM isn't a teacher, the DM has no responsibility to make sure the players can reach every single reward and attain every single goal. Success is only sweet if there's a real possibility of failure.

So I think reasonably challenging puzzles are a feature of good games of D&D, provided they're mixed with tactical combat challenges, roleplaying challenges and other obstacles in an interesting and coherent way.

It does help to have players who make a reasonable attempt to solve the puzzle rather than just snivelling at the DM until he gets so bored of their complaints that he just makes everything so easy the players can't fail. There are far too many players in the latter category, imo.
 

Ourph said:
CPU's don't have any concept of what is fair. CPUs limit their games to what they've been programmed to handle, period. DMs have the ability to expand or change what they can handle, what they think is fair and what they are willing to provide. CPUs don't have the same choice.

CPUs limit their games to what the designer of the CRPG has programmed in. You're very conveniently leaving out the fact that CRPGs have designers who often think about things a lot more carefully than your average DM.

Every game, CRPG or pen & paper, has limitations based on what the DM or the gamefile is prepared to handle. A DM can ad-lib, which is why pen & paper will almost always feel more reactive when you compare a good pen & paper game to a good CRPG. A good CRPG, on the other hand, can keep track of numbers that would give most DMs migraines.

(Or as I put it awhile back: the beauty of pen & paper is being able to ad-lib a cocktail party. The beauty of a CRPG is having a hundred-monster fight take fifteen very exciting minutes instead of twenty exciting minutes over the course of four hours.)

And the horribly designed game that I mentioned above, regarding the Hand of Plot that wouldn't allow us to get past the portcullis? That was Speaker in Dreams... which I've been told is actually a wonderfully reactive and nonlinear adventure when run by a good DM.
 

PapersAndPaychecks said:
It does help to have players who make a reasonable attempt to solve the puzzle rather than just snivelling at the DM until he gets so bored of their complaints that he just makes everything so easy the players can't fail. There are far too many players in the latter category, imo.
I think that different people want different things out of a game, and that many "snivelling" players just don't happen to enjoy puzzles and would rather move on to stuff that they do enjoy, like fighting or role-playing. I happen to enjoy puzzles, but I don't consider myself to be a more advanced life form because of it.
 

takyris said:
You're very conveniently leaving out the fact that CRPGs have designers who often think about things a lot more carefully than your average DM.
<snip>
A good CRPG, on the other hand, can keep track of numbers that would give most DMs migraines.

(Or as I put it awhile back: the beauty of pen & paper is being able to ad-lib a cocktail party. The beauty of a CRPG is having a hundred-monster fight take fifteen very exciting minutes instead of twenty exciting minutes over the course of four hours.)

And the horribly designed game that I mentioned above, regarding the Hand of Plot that wouldn't allow us to get past the portcullis? That was Speaker in Dreams... which I've been told is actually a wonderfully reactive and nonlinear adventure when run by a good DM.
I think you're arguing with a premise that I'm not espousing. For one thing, I never said that the "Hand of Plot" was a "horribly designed game" or made any value judgement on the situation whatsoever. The DM was acting like a CPU because he was running a previously written program without allowing for the possibility of deviation or expansion upon the script. There's nothing inherently wrong in that. It was merely an observation. I'm not suggesting DMs aren't allowed to do that, just observing that when they do the comparison with a CPU is, IMO, apt.
 
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Honestly, I wonder why so many people use videogames as the great example of linear storylines? Of all types of media, videogames come closest of all things to the flexibility of a good DM. In terms of ability to deal with multiple choices, the best of videogames surpass or equal many human DMs. I won't say they surpass all DMs or scenerios, but there are reasons that this difference isn't terribly big.

To argue my point, I will use Way of the Samurai, an exceptional game for this type of thing, as my example.

In the opening scene of Way of the Samurai, the player is dumped right into an area, where there is a group of thugs kidnapping a young woman just out of sight. The first thing most people would think of is to simply walk over and save the woman, and that would be the only option in a railroaded D&D game or a linear videogame. But here, there are several options, and several ways for the scene to play out. First, there is the very simple option of walking by the scene, ignoring the girl's pleas for help, and choosing from two different paths. Second, you can just draw your sword and attack the thugs. Third, you can go and speak to them, and choose between ignoring them, commanding them to let the girl go, or asking to join them. If you get into battle with them, you can try to kill your foe, demand his surrender, surrender to him, or just die. If you beat him, you can accept his surrender or threaten to kill him. And depending on what you do, you will either just wander until you reach the lord's compound, get invited to the girl's restraunt, or get tied to some railroad tracks, and the method you go about doing this can affect choices later on. This scene can radically affect which of the three major factions you end up working with in the game.

Not many DMs could handle this many significant choices (chatting about the weather does not count as a plot-significant choice) for a single scene very easily, and I bet there are some who would not be prepared for every possibility. Further, I would argue that there simply are not any interesting possibilities for dealing with this scene that the game does not allow, other than maybe giving the player the chance to make a dramatic monologue and then commit seppuku right on the bridge (which makes a better movie than a game, really). The scene itself only has so many options, and I challenge people to think of something to happen within this scene other than what is already covered, without resorting to unnecessary intervention from an NPC.

If you ask me, more problems are created when the players or the DM (especially the DM) think of a game like a book or movie than a video-game mentality creates.
 

TwinBahamut said:
In terms of ability to deal with multiple choices, the best of videogames surpass or equal many human DMs. I won't say they surpass all DMs or scenerios, but there are reasons that this difference isn't terribly big.

I give up. I'll say it. Computers are better than people at every last freakin' thing on the planet. Everybody happy now?
 

Ourph said:
I give up. I'll say it. Computers are better than people at every last freakin' thing on the planet. Everybody happy now?
Greetings, Citizen. The Computer is pleased. The Computer has decided that you need not be terminated. The Computer is now your friend. :)
 

What I'm seeing is that in terms of DMs and a computer games, people are talking theoretically. I'm not sure if the argument of whether an ideal DM can be compared to a real or yet to be designed game program in allowing choices to a player gets us anywhere.

Now if we wanted to compare Joe the local favorite DM vs. something like Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, that's a completely different comparison, more sensible, but still subjective. I guess it comes down to whether you are arguing the possibilities involved with a good DM in terms of choices available, or rather the quality of an actual existing tabletop game vs. an existing videogame.

I having been playing both tabletop and pc games continuously for 25 years. To me they are fundamentally different experiences; each offers some things that the other cannot. To me the degree of choice present in a tabletop game vs. a pc game is less important than the overall quality of the experience of play. In terms of choice, I think what my choices actually contribute to the overall experience of play matter more than whether I can ask an npc what he ate for breakfast or whether a door is impassible until I find a certain key.
 

Ourph said:
I think you're arguing with a premise that I'm not espousing. For one thing, I never said that the "Hand of Plot" was a "horribly designed game" or made any value judgement on the situation whatsoever. The DM was acting like a CPU because he was running a previously written program without allowing for the possibility of deviation or expansion upon the script. There's nothing inherently wrong in that. It was merely an observation. I'm not suggesting DMs aren't allowed to do that, just observing that when they do the comparison with a CPU is, IMO, apt.

Gah, my mistake. Attributed something Jhaelen said to you by mistake. Sorry.
 

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