Save or Die: Yea or Nay?

[the Jester]

This question is not all that cut and dried.

YES there should be some instances of "save or die" (or even "do something stupid and die, no save"), but NO it shouldn't be as common as everyone's favorite 4th level spell.

 

[El Mahdi]

I'm a DM, and I voted Nay.

I don't believe that in order to have the threat of death, one has to actually have real, commonly occuring, character death.

Making tools or mechanics available for players to avoid death, does not negate the threat. The "Oh, Crap" moments are still there. The tension isn't in the dying, it's in the threat of dying. The chance of death has not disappeared, it's just that now the players have tools to deal with the situations...though still not always. I want to take characters right to the edge of failure, and then let them pull off their Heroic escape. That edge is where the tension is. I don't want death to be common...I want death to be the exception. And because of it's exceptional status, be much more impactful.

For me, it's kind of like the death of Chewbacca. In peril after peril, the characters of Star Wars avoid death at almost every turn. The sheer number of times where death is a distinct possibility, and they squeak by again, defy the odds. But that's what Heroes are supposed to do. Because of this, when Chewbacca dies the impact is immense. And the manner of his death is so incredibly Heroic. That's the kind of death I want for characters. In my opinion, Save-or-Die effects make character death common and mundane...and most definitely un-Heroic.

 

[Starman]

If you fall in lava, you die (no save).

This is an immutable law.

I first read that as "If you fall in love, you die (no save)" which seemed like a rather harsh, cruel world you had going there.

 

[El Mahdi]

If you fall in lava, you die (no save).

This is an immutable law.

Absolutely!

Which is why I so appreciate mechanics like Action Points...so that characters can avoid falling into the lava in the first place...yet the threat still exists.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Like others who've posted, I didn't vote because I am both a player and a dm. I want save or dies in any game I play in, whether as player or dm. But they should be rare. At some point the paradigm shifted. Getting a save is now deemed necessary. Back in the day, a save was a gift from the gods and you were glad to have it. It meant you'd already f'd up , but the gods smiled on you and gave you a chance to survive. Now there are saves for stubbing your toe. What's next? Rubber walled dungeons?

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I DM and I play, so that probably should be a multiple choice poll.

Doesn't really matter though 'cause my answer is: it depends on the situation. Horror scenarios for example do need some really nasty monsters.

Same here. Situation is key.

So neither Yay nor Nay, but May.

The Auld Grump

 

[Gansk]

The only way to put the fear of death/drain into players is to make sure the players/PC's know the monster is capable of inflicting the effect on them. There are so many monster and spell books out now that a player probably doesn't know what's going to hit him - he's asked to make a save and within seconds he dead. Where is the tension there?

Back in the old days, when a wight was standing in front of your PC, you were scared. Why? Because you knew one hit from it was going to inflict a lot more damage than a whole gang of orcs. Same with a medusa, basilisk, dragon, banshee, bodak, etc. If you didn't the recognize the monster and/or your character wasn't aware of its attacks, then there is nothing climatic about dying due to one failed roll.

So the DM's who thrive on keeping the players guessing by using every monster in their RPG library can't have it both ways - they can't say that players need to learn to run sometimes if one or two PC's are dead after the first round. Sure they run in that case, but did the players enjoy the experience? What lesson did they learn?

As a DM I don't have a problem having an encounter that has the potential to kill a PC, but I have to make sure there are enough clues dropped around that indicate how dangerous the monster will be if the PC's choose to fight it. If the PC's choose to go forward, then the fear and tension are real and surviving the encounter is a reward in itself.

 

[I'm A Banana]

FFZ has an interesting solution, I think.

Instant Death (or petrification or whatnot) is entirely possible, and it's likely that one or two party members will have access to this ability (sometimes it deals damage even if it doesn't hit, somtimes, it just doesn't).

However, it's also very easy to undo, in many cases, easier to undo than it is to do in the first place. Items that undo statuses are not expensive. Being KO'd (at 0 hp, which is different than dead) is something easily remedied.

FFZ also has a clear "normal -> Elite -> Boss" monster hierarchy, and only normal monsters (the majority of mosnters) can be affected by such attacks. And in these situations, while a particular job might not be able to use a given highest-level power against the boss, they do have other alternatives.

Still, a high-level party of a Black Mage, a Dark Knight, and a Samurai will be cutting normal monsters down like wheat before the thresher, simply by choosing to do so. That's fairly intentional. It helps the high-level characters feel like a badass.

Monsters, of course, gain access to similar abilities, which can make them dangerous, but, again, fixing it is as simple as asking your buddy to not wail on the monsters this turn, but instead revive you. That plays into the Aggressive/Defensive pace of FFZ combat strategies: you need to employ healing and defensive abilities in order to not die, but every additional round adds to the attrition you're facing.

 

[Lanefan]

As both player and DM, I have no problem with things like save/die, level drain, equipment loss, and so forth. Adventuring is risky business.

But the risk also has to, in the end, carry at least a potential reward.

Lanefan

 

[S'mon]

I'm fine for it as a high level spell, not so keen on it for a low level monster bite. I use an optional rule from (I think) Mentzer Basic where most poison does damage, not auto-death.