Save or Die!

[CleverNickName]

By the way, save or die sucks. One of the meanest things a DM can do to a party (and still stay within the 'guidelines' of a fair encounter) is have a BBEG wizard send waves of very low level assassin wizard-rogue mooks with a nearly endless supply of relatively inexpensive save or die scrolls. Chances are good they'll consistently surprise the party, and everyone rolls a 1 on a crucial save at some point in their career.

Sometimes, characters get killed. And often, they get killed because of plain old bad luck...two critical hits in a row, a sneak attack from a high-level rogue, a failed save against a medusa's stare, and so on. I can accept that. But if a DM is going to create such a contrived and obvious situation like this one, just so he can point and laugh and say "ha ha, I totally killed you," I am going to pack up my books and go home. Nobody likes a bully.

The problem you described isn't "save or die" rules, it is a DM who enjoys killing characters.

 

[takasi]

But if a DM is going to create such a contrived and obvious situation like this one

It's bullying, but I don't think it's contrived.

If I were the leader of a cult and a high level spellcaster, I would scribe relatively inexpensive scrolls and give them to my low level mooks. Why would you rely on their casting ability?

The worst part about save or die though is the fear of the cheating DM. I've been in many games, especially RPGA game at conventions, where the DM rolls for his saves behind the screen and I've raised my eyebrow at his luck.

 

[CleverNickName]

The worst part about save or die though is the fear of the cheating DM. I've been in many games, especially RPGA game at conventions, where the DM rolls for his saves behind the screen and I've raised my eyebrow at his luck.

Save-or-die works both ways, I suppose. I remember a particularly bad gaming session where my BBEG (a red wyrm) was slain by a finger of death spell in the first round of combat because I rolled a natural 1 on the dragon's save. While everyone at the table cheered and congratulated the druid's player, I felt robbed: this was supposed to be a grand finale, a fierce battle-royal in which the party got to use all of the fancy anti-dragon magic items they had been collecting for months. And instead of an epic battle, I got one-round wonder.

But I got over it. I could have pulled some stunt out of my nostrils that would have spared the dragon's life ("it was all a dream," etc.), or I could have secretly rolled my save throw behind a screen and announced my desired result, but I didn't want to rob the player of a truly spectacular kill. After all, how many druids have defeated a 37-HD dragon single-handed?

 

[Remathilis]

I can't decide
whether you should save or die.
Oh your probably going to fail it,
please don't hold your head and cry
Don't wonder why,
my heart is dead inside,
now make your save vs. petrify
take a chance and roll the die,
we're going for a ride.

----

(with apologies to the Scissor Sisters)

 

[Ahglock]

I love save or die spells and save or status effect spells, I'm not pleased with how 3e implemented them.

It is too easy in 3e to pull them off successfully, its not even oh no I rolled a 1. If it was that, the issue would likely never come up because almost no one would be casting a spell on the hopes of a 1 except when they were down to there last action.

In 2e and earlier damaging spells did a higher % of damage and saves were easier to make(your stat didn't help and you didn't have weak saves to target). Save or dies never were an issue for us back then because they actually came across as balanced. You had to get lucky and damage was a really viable option.

In 3e at a certain point if we didn't self regulate save or dies would of been the go to option every round. And that gets boring.

I still think there can be ways to fix save or dies without removing them. Personally I think power word kill is one of my favorite spells that fit this type(though the save is really have enough HP) It doesn't bypass the HP system it uses it, But the slow effect for the save or status effect spells can work for me, and I'm not so sure how much of a slow effect there will be for non-permanent status effects like a confusion spell which can be just as bad.

But since I don't actually need death for my save or dies I actually am fairly happy with status effect ones I may be happy with what they do in 4e in that regard.

 

[WarlockLord]

Love save or die.

On the 'save or suck' note, we have a few things.

1) Sleep has been mentioned in a few playtests.

2) The beholder video mentioned by Plane Sailing

3) The new paladin article, which has the "binding smite" - you make a charisma attack against their will defense, and if you win they can only attack you. It is for epic level (27th) characters only. Please, if this is indicative of anything... no. If one can't use paralysis or some other "omg he hit me with a spell I can't act oh no this is broken" without relying on some contrived HP mechanic...