Save Vs Silence

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Sure about that, I2k?

Fireball
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes

Silence
Illusion (Glamer)
Level: Brd 2, Clr 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius emanation centered on a creature, object, or point in space
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text or none (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes; see text or no (object)

When Spell Resistance Applies

Each spell includes an entry that indicates whether spell resistance applies to the spell. In general, whether spell resistance applies depends on what the spell does:

• Targeted Spells: Spell resistance applies if the spell is targeted at the creature. Some individually targeted spells can be directed at several creatures simultaneously. In such cases, a creature’s spell resistance applies only to the portion of the spell actually targeted at that creature. If several different resistant creatures are subjected to such a spell, each checks its spell resistance separately.
• Area Spells: Spell resistance applies if the resistant creature is within the spell’s area. It protects the resistant creature without affecting the spell itself.
• Effect Spells: Most effect spells summon or create something and are not subject to spell resistance. Sometimes, however, spell resistance applies to effect spells, usually to those that act upon a creature more or less directly, such as web.

Spell resistance can protect a creature from a spell that’s already been cast. Check spell resistance when the creature is first affected by the spell.

 

[Gaiden]

It's the same as for the save. You only apply SR if the silence spell is targeted on the character.

Not true - SR works even if you are not the target but caught in the AoE.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Sure about that, I2k?

Yes, pretty sure. I admit when I'm wrong.

The key from your quotes is "Spell Resistance: Yes; see text or no (object)". If I cast silence on a stone and you have SR and come near, it's clear your SR doesn't apply, right? Because, at that point SR=No. If I cast silence on a point in space or a creature, you look up "Yes; see text". From silence, we get "An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any." That means that SR=Yes only in the case of casting it on an unwilling creature, but only that creature gets a save or SR. At that point, the spell either fails or it doesn't and then no one else can apply a save or SR.

 

[azhrei_fje]

I was actually toying with the idea that silence needed to be nerfed.

Now I'm sure.

I think there's too much being read into the description of the spell. If the fireball spell had the same Saving Throw line, would the SR creature get to roll its resistance? I think I'd go with "yes". And that's because while the object being targeted may or may not get a save, a creature with SR does when it enters an AoE. I see nothing that trumps that statement.

As I said, I've been thinking about requiring a Will save from any unwilling creature within the AoE of silence, or who enters the AoE after it's cast. Such a save would mean that the individual creature was not affected. This would be more inline with the way other AoE spells work, such as fireball. But I haven't actually instituted this yet. I'll bring it up at the next session and we'll try it. I'll let everyone know how it turns out.

 

[Gaiden]

More to the point of my original question - if you say yes, SR works when entering the AoE of a silence or darkness spell, how does it actually work out? Do they treat the entire spell as not existing, or only that portion of the AoE that they occupy? Let's say it is a greater darkness spell and the drow with SR is not on the exterior of the globe. Can the drow cast his darkness in response while not moving his position (all else being equal). He would no longer have line of sight to wherever he wanted to cast it (outside of the globe) even if he was not personally effected because the area all around him would still be effected.

I want to say that the rest of the globe is still there (as would the silence effect) and that in effect even if the SR was effective, it is almost entirely useless. You could even say that only his person was effected in terms of the AoE and so even his square was still dark, just not the portion that he occupied - which is irrelevant.

 

[irdeggman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joker
The 20th level wizard then proceeds to beat the crap out of the 3rd level cleric with a quarterstaff .

Or blasts him into oblivion with a Silent Disintegrate.

Or better yet has his now very pumped up familiar go in and beat the crap out of the cleric and then go poo on the lifeless corpse.

 

[irdeggman]

More to the point of my original question - if you say yes, SR works when entering the AoE of a silence or darkness spell, how does it actually work out? Do they treat the entire spell as not existing, or only that portion of the AoE that they occupy? Let's say it is a greater darkness spell and the drow with SR is not on the exterior of the globe. Can the drow cast his darkness in response while not moving his position (all else being equal). He would no longer have line of sight to wherever he wanted to cast it (outside of the globe) even if he was not personally effected because the area all around him would still be effected.

I want to say that the rest of the globe is still there (as would the silence effect) and that in effect even if the SR was effective, it is almost entirely useless. You could even say that only his person was effected in terms of the AoE and so even his square was still dark, just not the portion that he occupied - which is irrelevant.

from SRD (see also above):

Area Spells: Spell resistance applies if the resistant creature is within the spell’s area. It protects the resistant creature without affecting the spell itself.

So essentially it is no existant to the creature with SR but it is still there. Like freedom of movement allows the recipient to move freely in water, but the water is still there (e.g., everyone else around is still affected by the water - it didn't sudenly dry up)

 

[wedgeski]

I've just realised I may have been house ruling silence without even realising it, in allowing a saving throw even if it's not targeted specifically at you.

Can anyone please point me at some SRD goodness which states you do not get a saving throw when entering an area of effect which is stil in effect?

 

[Artoomis]

I've just realised I may have been house ruling silence without even realising it, in allowing a saving throw even if it's not targeted specifically at you.

Can anyone please point me at some SRD goodness which states you do not get a saving throw when entering an area of effect which is stil in effect?

You don't need it for silence. Silence only gives you a saving throw if YOU are targeted. Period. End of story.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I've just realised I may have been house ruling silence without even realising it, in allowing a saving throw even if it's not targeted specifically at you.

Can anyone please point me at some SRD goodness which states you do not get a saving throw when entering an area of effect which is stil in effect?

Reread post #13.

Or better yet has his now very pumped up familiar go in and beat the crap out of the cleric and then go poo on the lifeless corpse.

20th level wizard: "I don't need to kill you. I'll let me sparrow do it for me."