D&D 5E Save Your Campaign with the Tomb of Horror

I'm sorry but this idea completely invalidates the adventuring mechanic. When there is no penalty for failure, the reward will be minuscule.

You are handing out Participation Trophies in place of EXP.
 

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It was just a dream and a do over......... Sorry but that idea was in use before "Groundhog day". And I rather be in a party with a TPK. I will pass on the idea.
 

My first choice would be to actually fix the issues with Tomb of Horrors to make it more fair, then let the dice fall where they may. Super deadly is just fine, if it's fair. My opinion on the original module is that it is not.

But if that was not something I could do for whatever reason, the Groundhog Day solution seems fun because I like silly in my D&D. I can see how others who aren't into the silly would not prefer it.

As far as the objection that it removes the risk, note that it only removes the risk of death. There may be other stakes in play that you can win or lose. Life and death is only one of many kinds of stakes. Many other kinds of stakes can be equally compelling.
 

As far as the objection that it removes the risk, note that it only removes the risk of death. There may be other stakes in play that you can win or lose. Life and death is only one of many kinds of stakes. Many other kinds of stakes can be equally compelling.

A very good point. The key issue is maintaining dramatic tension.
 

I'm sure that the 5e version will be watered down compared to the original module.
I'm not a huge fan of the original Tomb of Horrors because I find it cheap and unfair. But, at the same time, I hope they don't defang it too much otherwise it loses what makes it interesting and special. Without the lethality there's less that makes the Tomb of Horrors interesting: no unique funhouse puzzles or chambers, no memorable NPCs, and no interesting combat encounters. A Tomb of Horrors where you don't get crushed, burned alive, annihilated, or starve naked in a pit just isn't a Tomb of Horrors.
Plus, to some extent, people *want* to die in the Tomb of Horrors. If it's too easy then there's no feeling of success or accomplishment. It's going to climb Everest and finding someone installed an escalator.

Hence my solving the Gordian Knot neither by making it less lethal nor playing it straight, but instead by making death sting less. (And sometimes encouraging you to find ways of dying.)

That said, there's a lot of places where the solutions to "puzzles" could be more obvious. Where a subtle clue is needed or the solution can be that little less specific. So figuring out the way past is more a result of figuring out the solution rather than brute force problem solving where you try everything until you get lucky. That's less interesting as there's no "eureka" moment prior to solving the problem or post-revelation scene where you go "ohhhh, it makes sense now".
I think this is where White Plume Mountain is the stronger. It presents the wacky funhouse dungeon chambers and you just have to think of a solution. There's no singular solution and the problem is obvious. In the Tomb of Horrors neither the problem nor the solution is obvious and often isn't logical. There's less cause-and-effect.

The only possible downside, is that because the adventure is pretty long, repeating the parts you've already done successfully in previous run can become tedious, so some fast-forward mechanisms can be employed. But at the same time, it would make a lot of sense to re-do the combats or anything that depends on chance (because different dice rolls can yield different outcomes). In the best case, you can end up with each re-run being different from the previous (thus adding some tension and excitement), but overall getting a sense that you are really advancing towards victory.


Replaying some bits would be super fast. If they know where to look, success is guaranteed. At that point, you can just fast forward through the intervening sections. "We go to the middle door, pull the 3rd level, duck, go through the hidden hatch behind the altar, tell the guard we'll bring him a bottle of red wine, and then climb the ladder."

To me, the extra interesting potential of this kind of story occurs when something bad happens and only half the party dies. And then the other half can either kill themselves or look ahead, being needlessly reckless because it doesn't matter. That and the fun potential of "Well, it doesn't matter if we die. Let's try X just to see what happens." It's a licence to get creative.

I imagine most combats could be run a couple times. Once when it's a surprise and a second time when the players know where it is and when it's going to attack (so they can ready an ambush or the like). After that, when they "reset" the combat just occurs again as it happened previously. They're just assumed to succeed, taking as much damage and using as many resources.
Or they can opt to run it a third time if they believe they can do it better or have a more efficient strategy, possibly gaining advantage on all rolls to reflect their knowledge of when and where to strike and when to dodge.
After all, in those types of stores, the heroes become super good at solving the known problems. That's represented by not need to roll. There's no longer any random chance.

In terms of experience, the party should get full experience the first couple times. When you're trying a fight again in a different way it's a different fight so your character can still learn something (and gain more experience). Which, of course, should be retained despite resets. (Although levelling shouldn't be permitted.) After the second time, experience should be halved for the third attempt at a fight. The character learns less. And there's less danger and thus there should be less of a reward. (And, from a meta standpoint, you don't want to encourage "grinding".) From then on there should be no experience gained: at that point, the reward of completing the encounter aren't experience but beating the fight in a better state (more HP, fewer spent spells, etc).

It was just a dream and a do over......... Sorry but that idea was in use before "Groundhog day". And I rather be in a party with a TPK. I will pass on the idea.
Using it as a method of negating a TPK is just one hook. You can run with the Groundhod/Repeat concept just fine without that.

The point is making the Tomb of Horrors fun without either making it less lethal, making your players feel slighted, or having the game be slow as the group is painfully cautious and hesitant to try anything.
 


That's why I would love to see a dungeon designed for this purpose. You'd want obstacles (whether trap/puzzle or combat) that can be overcome with a very high degree of certainly once they are understood. In my mind that would be the fast-forward mechanism. "We press blue, red, blue, green, yellow". "Ok, door opens onto big hallway." "We go down to the 3rd door on left..." Etc.

Or, for example, a complicated maze could be "memorized" as a sequence of turns, and as long as the players can rattle off those instructions rapid-fire (without writing it down!) then you can zip through it.

Replaying some bits would be super fast. If they know where to look, success is guaranteed. At that point, you can just fast forward through the intervening sections. "We go to the middle door, pull the 3rd level, duck, go through the hidden hatch behind the altar, tell the guard we'll bring him a bottle of red wine, and then climb the ladder."

To me, the extra interesting potential of this kind of story occurs when something bad happens and only half the party dies. And then the other half can either kill themselves or look ahead, being needlessly reckless because it doesn't matter. That and the fun potential of "Well, it doesn't matter if we die. Let's try X just to see what happens." It's a licence to get creative.

I imagine most combats could be run a couple times. Once when it's a surprise and a second time when the players know where it is and when it's going to attack (so they can ready an ambush or the like). After that, when they "reset" the combat just occurs again as it happened previously. They're just assumed to succeed, taking as much damage and using as many resources.
Or they can opt to run it a third time if they believe they can do it better or have a more efficient strategy, possibly gaining advantage on all rolls to reflect their knowledge of when and where to strike and when to dodge.
After all, in those types of stores, the heroes become super good at solving the known problems. That's represented by not need to roll. There's no longer any random chance.

All good ideas. I was definitely thinking that different challenges should follow different "replay rules". The DM has quite an usual but very interesting task here!

So on one hand, anything that is solved by the players (a puzzle, a special trap or mechanism, navigating a maze, discovering an illusion...) can obviously be fast-forwarded the second time, assuming the PCs simply remember the solution.

Other things that are solved by the characters and have a degree of randomness (combat, some skills) should probably be replayed fully, but they inherently become easier when the players know something in advance (and even level up sometimes). It is nice to leave open the possibility that something goes wrong compared to the previous run, and leads the party to discover a new option. But some limit is needed... you don't want to fully run a combat that has become too easy, so you can just handwave it after a few times, or even just after the first if you feel like.
 

I'm sure that the 5e version will be watered down compared to the original module.
Then, for this purpose anyway, use the original. :)

Also for all: note that the OP has them restart right where they last were, rather than at the start of the dungeon, so "replays" should mostly just be the encounter that killed them the most recent time.

The only potential problam I can see here is if the original party that got TPKed is simply too low-level to even think about ToH.

Lan-"Tomb survivor"-efan
 

.....Using it as a method of negating a TPK is just one hook. You can run with the Groundhod/Repeat concept just fine without that.

The point is making the Tomb of Horrors fun without either making it less lethal, making your players feel slighted, or having the game be slow as the group is painfully cautious and hesitant to try anything.

.....
Let me be blunt. The ground hog day/just a dream is just plain bad. Only thing that would make it good if was a comedy, pcs were drawn out of random pile, and the best death gets $1000. And I get $10,000 for just mentioning it.
Making Tomb of Horrors easy.... No way. Playing tomb of horrors should be tough. And the dm should get a beer for every pc killed. And if someone storms out, they buy the beer and pizza for the next 3 sessions.
 

Rather than a straightforward Groundhog Day approach, what about using the plot of Algis Budrys' Rogue Moon for inspiration: essentially every time the PCs 'die' a back-up clone is teleported in (not quite how it works in the book, but you don't want to rerun the same bits a hundred times). Possibly they don't even realise what's happening at first, but then start encountering piles of their own corpses, maybe even multiple active copies of themselves. In principle a great opportunity for roleplaying horror, identity crises etc - in practice, it'll depend on your players.
You could also check out "Diamond Dogs" by Alastair Reynolds, which has a very similar plot (I think it's explicitly inspired by Rogue Moon, but I can't find the reference for that) which adds the idea that the explorers get incrementally modified each time they die in order to face the traps better - so they accumulate water-breathing, natural armour, etc. Maybe make this an explicit player choice; when they die, they hear a voice offering them an 'upgrade'. At first it seems great, but each change involves a trade-off and they gradually realise that unless they do something, what will complete the dungeon won't be humanoid any more. So you switch the fear of death with the fear of loss of humanity, and the real enemy turns out to be not the lich, but the obsessive, body-modifying quest giver they met in the tavern...
 
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