D&D 5E Save Your Campaign with the Tomb of Horror

I just do not find your argument compelling and as regards to the time period, I never experienced anyone who felt the way you (and others) do here. Nobody got mad at their DM or punched them, or lost friendships over something as stupid as their make-believe people getting "killed". And I'd have to believe people have deeper rooted issues if they do/did. Did this also happen to people when they lost at Monopoly or tag on the playground?.Sure. maybe when you are 5. Not as young adults.
That depends ENTIRELY on the reaction from the DM. If gloating or laughing is involved the players might not react well.

If you've ever had someone laugh at you when they win at Monopoly, it can cause tempers to rise. It's something we forget as adults, after two or three decades of conditioning us to control those tempers and be a fair winner.

I ran it twice and played in it 3 or 4 times during the late 70s/early 1980s both in home games as well as at school D&D clubs with people who were not in my normal gaming group. Everyone I ever played with understood exactly what it was (a tournament to challenge players who were too big for their britches), looked at it as a "badge of honor" and we all laughed at our character's gruesome deaths. We never felt it was a horrible design or Gary was "mean"., or that it needed to be "fair and logical" (it's a game of make-believe).
When was the last time you read it? When was the last time you ran it?
How do you think new players would react? Your current group?

Try it. Run it for your players but don't tell them: after all, it has a rep now that just didn't exist in the 1980s.
Run it as presented in 1e and change the descriptions. (Red Dragon Mouth instead of a Greed Demon Face, flip the map, etc.) And see how much they enjoy and how well it holds up.

Added points if you laugh at their faces when they all die.

If it was so horrible, it would not have survived in conversions, re-prints, or expanded versions through every single edition of the game, and spawned dozens of imitators over the last 40 years. Sales and interest continue to stand the test of time.
Nostalgia is a powerful thing. There are some terrible, terrible movies and TV shows I love despite the fact they are horrible.

Look at the continued popularity of The Brady Bunch or The A*Team or Knight Rider or Dukes of Hazzard.

It's also worth nothing that most of the expansions (in 2e and 4e) completely redid the dungeon. The original wasn't included. In 3e and 4e they literally gave away the straight reprints. It survives as a source of inspiration and a discussion point more than a gaming product people actually use straight.
Tales from the Yawning Portal might be the first time it was actually reprinted straight as a product people are expected to run.
 

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Did you just call the A-Team and Dukes of Hazard bad tv shows?

....

That depends ENTIRELY on the reaction from the DM. If gloating or laughing is involved the players might not react well.

If you've ever had someone laugh at you when they win at Monopoly, it can cause tempers to rise. It's something we forget as adults, after two or three decades of conditioning us to control those tempers and be a fair winner.


When was the last time you read it? When was the last time you ran it?
How do you think new players would react? Your current group?

Try it. Run it for your players but don't tell them: after all, it has a rep now that just didn't exist in the 1980s.
Run it as presented in 1e and change the descriptions. (Red Dragon Mouth instead of a Greed Demon Face, flip the map, etc.) And see how much they enjoy and how well it holds up.

Added points if you laugh at their faces when they all die.


Nostalgia is a powerful thing. There are some terrible, terrible movies and TV shows I love despite the fact they are horrible.

Look at the continued popularity of The Brady Bunch or The A*Team or Knight Rider or Dukes of Hazzard.

It's also worth nothing that most of the expansions (in 2e and 4e) completely redid the dungeon. The original wasn't included. In 3e and 4e they literally gave away the straight reprints. It survives as a source of inspiration and a discussion point more than a gaming product people actually use straight.
Tales from the Yawning Portal might be the first time it was actually reprinted straight as a product people are expected to run.
 

Try it. Run it for your players but don't tell them: after all, it has a rep now that just didn't exist in the 1980s.
Run it as presented in 1e and change the descriptions. (Red Dragon Mouth instead of a Greed Demon Face, flip the map, etc.) And see how much they enjoy and how well it holds up.

Well, if you run the module as presented in 1e (the pink cover version), it leads off with this:

"Characters attempting to glean special information by consulting sages or through legend lore spells may still have difficulty obtaining as much background as they desire, for the scraps of information are often minimal and mystical.

These bits of information are available as clues, and characters can make of them what they wish: Ancient Burial Places; Ancient Tombs; Sorcerous Kings; Challenges; Surpassing (Certain Death); Soul Eaters; Treasure; Great...

The other parts of the legend can be furnished by the Dungeon Master from the description which follows:

The Tomb of Horrors: Somewhere under a lost and lonely hill of grim and foreboding aspect lies a labyrinthine crypt. It is filled with terrible traps and not a few strange and ferocious monsters to slay the unwary. It is filled with rich treasures both precious and magical, but in addition to the aforementioned guardians, there is said to be a demi-lich who still wards his final haunt (Be warned that tales told have it that this being possesses powers which make him nearly undefeatable).

Accounts relate that it is quite unlikely that any adventurers will ever find the chamber where the demi-lich Acererak lingers, for the passages and rooms of the Tomb are fraught with terrible traps, poison gases, and magical protections. Furthermore, the demi-lich has so well hidden his lair, that even those who avoid the pitfalls will not be likely to locale their true goal.

So only large and well-prepared parties of the bravest and strongest should even consider the attempt, and if they do locate the Tomb, they must be prepared to fail. Any expedition must be composed of characters of high level and varied class. They must have magical protections and weapons, and equip themselves with every sort of device possible to insure their survival."

So, as presented in 1e, there is context to be found.

Now, it doesn't have the literal exact narrative text separated out in a gray box for the DM to read out loud, so it requires a bit of preparation, imagination, and discretion on the DM's part. Newer modules are better that way, but still, the point is clear here.

If your party role plays like a seasoned group of adventurers, then they will have at least part of a session of investigation, spell casting, research, face time with sages, and the like. They will learn what they'e getting into, just how my group did.

If you want to (dishonestly) prove your point, then ignore that text and unceremoniously drop them in front of the hill.

Added points if you laugh at their faces when they all die.

I couldn't laugh in their faces, because we were all laughing so much from the ways their summoned creatures - their impromptu crash test dummies - all died. I started having fun with it, and making the conjured beings aware of what was coming, as if it was just another day at work. "Oh, this place again. I suppose you want me to walk ahead of you, right?"
 

Did you just call the A-Team and Dukes of Hazard bad tv shows?

....
Yes. They are not good shows. They are cheesy and cartoonish and very formulaic. But with the right amount of nostalgia and your brain turned off, they can be very enjoyable.

I ran it eight years ago with veteran gamers and it was fun as hell.

Stop projecting your own notion of fun on everyone.
I didn't say it was impossible to be fun. A skilled DM could make it into an enjoyable experience. Running the Tomb well requires a skilled DM as much as skilled players.

It's because not everyone finds fun the same way that I started this post. Because I want people to find a way to have fun with the classics, even if they don't enjoy losing characters or have zero experience with Gotcha! dungeons or OSR gameplay.

(After all, as originally designed, this was part of the original Greyhawk campaign. Tenser and Robilar went into it, and had they died those characters would have been dead forever. Just like Luke Gygax's character, who was used in the playtesting and ended up naked and dead forever. I believe that was Melf...)

Well, if you run the module as presented in 1e (the pink cover version), it leads off with this:

So, as presented in 1e, there is context to be found.
That's not context. That's the elevator pitch for the module. A description that belongs as much on the back cover. It's the introduction for the DM.

And, that would be covered by "change the details". The "tomb" becomes a "barrow mount" and the "demilich" becomes a "spawn of Vecna". The nouns shift a bit and expectations change. If gamers don't know what they're getting into (and its reputation) then it changes the experience.

Now, it doesn't have the literal exact narrative text separated out in a gray box for the DM to read out loud, so it requires a bit of preparation, imagination, and discretion on the DM's part.
Well, preparation and a 6th level spell from the players. Not that you can prepare as the only description is "traps and monsters" which is as vague as you can get. (The only useful information gleamed are the references to poison and bit about "even those who avoid the pitfalls", and really requires the DM to just read the section verbatim.)

If your party role plays like a seasoned group of adventurers, then they will have at least part of a session of investigation, spell casting, research, face time with sages, and the like. They will learn what they'e getting into, just how my group did.

If you want to (dishonestly) prove your point, then ignore that text and unceremoniously drop them in front of the hill.
You use the term "seasoned group of adventurers" and "veteran gamers" twice in your replies. Odd, considering when the module was first run a "veteran gamer" would have been someone with two years of experience. When it was published, people would have had four or five years experience with D&D.
Most of us at ENWorld have twice the time at the table as the gamers who originally faced the Tomb. And the benefit of decades of advice, trips, and tricks regarding dungeon crawling and dealing with traps.

Plus, how can you devote "part of a session" to investigation and spell-casting when you're on the clock in a tournament? That's how the module was originally run. You have minutes to do your research and get what you need. Giving the party plenty of time to plan and research and prepare is far more "dishonest" as you put it.

I couldn't laugh in their faces, because we were all laughing so much from the ways their summoned creatures - their impromptu crash test dummies - all died. I started having fun with it, and making the conjured beings aware of what was coming, as if it was just another day at work. "Oh, this place again. I suppose you want me to walk ahead of you, right?"
Which is the point. Everyone was laughing together and you, as an experienced DM, (and potentially with two or three times as much experience behind the screen as Gary) were making it fun and not approaching it as an adversarial challenge. You hadn't explicitly created the dungeon to humble your players. You were adding levity and enjoyment not found in the text.
 

@Jester David

All other points you made kinda fell flat after calling dukes of hazard and a-team bad tv shows. I'm not sure we can trust your judgment on anything any more.
 


@Jester David

All other points you made kinda fell flat after calling dukes of hazard and a-team bad tv shows. I'm not sure we can trust your judgment on anything any more.

[video]https://youtu.be/DaJOeLuUD94[/video]
Yeah, pure quality that. Not at all ridiculous.

[video]https://youtu.be/03L8u9S1vyY[/video]
Such a gritty and realistic bar brawl with amazing stunt choreography.

Can you enjoy something that's bad? Sure, why not? That's the definition of "guilty pleasure". Shows like that are the chocolate of television.
It's why I watch the Arrowverse shows. Goddamn the The Flash is cheesy and often bad, but I do so enjoy it. I just have no delusions it's Game of Thrones or Roots.
 

It's so awesome that I've been line-by-line quoted by someone arguing in bad faith, who moves the goalposts so far that you can barely see the stadium.

I've been around players with emotional maturity for so long...I'd forgotten.

I'm... home!

(single tear down cheek)
 


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