D&D 5E Save Your Campaign with the Tomb of Horror

[zaratan]

That's what I figured, but wasn't exactly sure since I wasn't familiar with those specific games.

The thing with the old ToH as I see it is that it wasn't actually difficult - it was just unfair due to the usual gotcha screwjobs of its time. Gotchas are effectively "fake difficulty" because player skill doesn't really play into their resolution or it relies heavily on uninformed choices or randomness.

What an update to ToH needs, in my view, is to make it very difficult, but not unfair. Where the players' informed choices can still lead to bad outcomes if their choices are ill considered given knowledge of the facts.

You can read up on fake difficulty here and in other sources (google it). Claiming that some folks want the game to be easy is probably not true in most cases. Some just want it to be fair. Designing it to be more fair does not necessarily make it easier.

Yeah, I see your point. ToH is really unfair, but I think is what it propose too. Like many "choose wrong and die" from steve jackson's and ian livingstone game books. What you do later? Try again, with another option. Ghosts ‘n Goblins is really, really unfair, until you memorize any step and have skill to press te buttons at the right time later.

ToH options will continue to be unfair, the change will be "ok, you choosed wrong, isn't a instant kill, just take 5d10+20 and go to the next unpredictable option".

I really like the idea of a hard, but fair dungeon, with puzzles, tests, speed to act and so for the players, but will be a different dungeon, and I would love to play.

 

[WarpedAcorn]

I am surprised at the amount of resentment for this idea. For a homebrew game, I like it. ToH is the type of game my players would never defeat. It would end the session with everyone being unhappy (not mad, but a total wipe in the first 30min of play is not fun). This would give a means for my group to play through a classic, I could be as cruel as I wanted, and death could be a lot more "fun". I just see my players going, "I'm going to regret this, but I open the door".

The reward for completing adventures is loot and XP. These can be modified so they are very small since the adventure is "nerfed". The real life reward is having a hell of a fun time, and I see this Groundhog Day approach as being something I and my players might find a lot of fun.

Personally, I'm keeping this idea in my back pocket for something to try over the summer when my main campaign finishes. In fact I think I might already have a strong hook that would tie in with the upcoming finale.

 

[Li Shenron]

The OP said this: "Because they're caught in a time loop they start again right where they left off." I assumed that meant they would always come back in the same room where they died, or at the nearest safe spot.

Ok! I didn't notice that important bit, and since time goes back to the previous morning each time, I assumed they would restart from where they were at the beginning of the day. And this is what I will do, because honestly restarting from where they died does not sound equally a good idea to me, and what exactly does it imply then to go back to the morning hour but in a new location? What if the location is actually past a point of no return? This opens up some DM's ex-machina decisions or possible inconsistencies. It's easier to just actually rewind time back. And with that I also mean, that whatever resources they spend is restored, and whatever treasure or items they found disappears, because it's still to be found. Only XP are gained, since they are aware of looping back in time, and they will reap the rewards of what they have learned in the previous run.

I said this is what I will do, because this is too good an idea to pass. I've been asked repeatedly by my 9yo and 7yo in the past few weeks, when I will finally let them play "that storytelling game with traps and monsters", and I've been thinking what could be a good first D&D adventure for them (we did play some related games before, such as free storytelling, Lego's Heroica and the WotC battlegame for children that came out a year ago or so, but never D&D itself). Well now I think I know... instead of trying to find a "soft" introduction to D&D, let's just throw them straight into it!

 

[Beleriphon]

Sounds like

"Tomb of Horrors: Special Snowflake Edition"


The Tomb is not about being fair. It is a test of Player Skill. Which seems to be lost on most people these days.

Its also missed that its a tournament module, explicitly meant to to be played by people that know exactly what's going on upfront.

Its like being told your intramural office team is going to play a baseball game against a really, really good team. That really, really good team is the New York Yankees. If you know in advance that you're playing the Yankees and your best player is a 40 year old pudgy guy that played baseball in highschool you aren't expecting to win.

 

[iserith]

Yeah, I see your point. ToH is really unfair, but I think is what it propose too. Like many "choose wrong and die" from steve jackson's and ian livingstone game books. What you do later? Try again, with another option. Ghosts ‘n Goblins is really, really unfair, until you memorize any step and have skill to press te buttons at the right time later.

Sure, but many video games benefit from a short iteration time, that is, how long it takes a player to get back into the game after character death. Even if you have backup characters at the ready, there's often a delay to introduce that character, which means that there's some amount of time that a player is just sitting there not playing. (Many groups don't even emphasize having backup characters like I do which exacerbates the issue.) Me sitting there not playing because my character was killed in a fair challenge is a lot different than if he or she was killed unfairly. The OP's solution is basically to decrease iteration time, which is a good solution, if a bit quirky for the genre.

Here's an interesting video on "When Difficult is Fun." It even references Ghosts 'n Goblins, since it's about video games, but it's broadly applicable to tabletop RPGs in my view. It also talks about telegraphing which is one of the areas that I feel ToH falls down on the job (probably due to its time). Telegraphing goes a long way toward making a challenge, even a deadly or severely difficult one, fair.

 

[zaratan]

Sure, but many video games benefit from a short iteration time, that is, how long it takes a player to get back into the game after character death. Even if you have backup characters at the ready, there's often a delay to introduce that character, which means that there's some amount of time that a player is just sitting there not playing. (Many groups don't even emphasize having backup characters like I do which exacerbates the issue.) Me sitting there not playing because my character was killed in a fair challenge is a lot different than if he or she was killed unfairly. The OP's solution is basically to decrease iteration time, which is a good solution, if a bit quirky for the genre.

Here's an interesting video on "When Difficult is Fun." It even references Ghosts 'n Goblins, since it's about video games, but it's broadly applicable to tabletop RPGs in my view. It also talks about telegraphing which is one of the areas that I feel ToH falls down on the job (probably due to its time). Telegraphing goes a long way toward making a challenge, even a deadly or severely difficult one, fair.

Yeah, I agree with the OP view with how to deal with ToH, now it's about "how many lives you need to complete", instead of "how far can you go before take hours or days to make another try". And in fact, most of deably hazards in ToH can be avoided with caution (you can't avoid all).

But I really would like if in ToYP, there was a warning about ToH with "yes, your players will die, that advanture is design to this, here some tips to take fun of this and make enjoyable...". Instead of "okey, one big rock trapped the slow ones, hit they 350hp with AC15 to break free!" or "you could examined that with magic or check the entrance with a rope or other object istead of enter directly, just take 5d10 and be expelled".
The idea of always get a way to avoid one hazard (at least the deadly ones) is perfect, but nerf the lethality if players fails isn't ToH.

 

[Jester David]

He's also a notorious D&D hater, which may color his memories a tinge.

While that may be true, his counterpart article on the best adventure is also D&D (http://johnwickpresents.com/updates/the-best-adventure-of-all-times/ ). So he seems to be basing his evaluation on the adventure design itself and not the rules content.

yep, looks like everyone expect 5e ToH will be more like Kirby's Epic Yarn than Ghosts ‘n Goblins. Wouldn't be a great surprise if we're all wrong?

If we're right, see you guys here to enhance 5e ToH to what it should be.

Well, Curse of Strahd sure wasn't D&D on Easy Mode, and didn't make many efforts to make that adventure less deadly.

Sounds like
"Tomb of Horrors: Special Snowflake Edition"

The Tomb is not about being fair. It is a test of Player Skill. Which seems to be lost on most people these days.

The thing is, the Tomb of Horrors is terrible in that regard, as it was designed as much to humble Gary's players . There's a lot of problems where you just have to muddle a solution. That's not rewarding player skill, but player luck in fumbling into the correct solution or happening to have the right spell prepared or just poking the right option.
There's also a lot of tricks where you're just meant to guess right, or where there's no overt sign things are a trap or the real solution isn't one of the options provided. So even the smart players who evaluate the scene and are smart and careful will be killed (or lose all their gear). When you figure out the safe route or the solution there's few "ooohhh, I get it now?" moments and more "how were we supposed to know that?" scenes.

It's just not a well designed or well written adventure.
But, really, while it was published in 1978, the module was written in 1975 (for Origins 1). This means that Gygax had been writing adventures and designing dungeons for, what? Two years? Maybe one and change.

But even if it was a well designed modules, it's testing players on a skill set that has atrophied over the last few decades. That kind of dungeon crawl and adventure just isn't designed that way… if that style of play was ever particularly common. At best, it's punishing players for not thinking like players (and people) did 42 years ago, and at worst it's punishing players for not thinking like Gygax and his gaming group.

 

[Li Shenron]

It's just not a well designed or well written adventure.
But, really, while it was published in 1978, the module was written in 1975 (for Origins 1).

I thought Origins was a convention, and ToH was to be played as a tournament? And I thought it was designed specifically as a sort of elimination game, for the winning team to be the one that lasted longer (or grabbed more gold) before they all died anyway. If that's the case, then it was well designed.

 

[Beleriphon]

I thought Origins was a convention, and ToH was to be played as a tournament? And I thought it was designed specifically as a sort of elimination game, for the winning team to be the one that lasted longer (or grabbed more gold) before they all died anyway. If that's the case, then it was well designed.

My understanding is that ToH was first used at a tournament played at Origins.

 

[JeffB]

The thing is, the Tomb of Horrors is terrible in that regard, as it was designed as much to humble Gary's players . There's a lot of problems where you just have to muddle a solution. That's not rewarding player skill, but player luck in fumbling into the correct solution or happening to have the right spell prepared or just poking the right option.
There's also a lot of tricks where you're just meant to guess right, or where there's no overt sign things are a trap or the real solution isn't one of the options provided. So even the smart players who evaluate the scene and are smart and careful will be killed (or lose all their gear). When you figure out the safe route or the solution there's few "ooohhh, I get it now?" moments and more "how were we supposed to know that?" scenes.

It's just not a well designed or well written adventure.
But, really, while it was published in 1978, the module was written in 1975 (for Origins 1). This means that Gygax had been writing adventures and designing dungeons for, what? Two years? Maybe one and change.

But even if it was a well designed modules, it's testing players on a skill set that has atrophied over the last few decades. That kind of dungeon crawl and adventure just isn't designed that way… if that style of play was ever particularly common. At best, it's punishing players for not thinking like players (and people) did 42 years ago, and at worst it's punishing players for not thinking like Gygax and his gaming group.

I just do not find your argument compelling and as regards to the time period, I never experienced anyone who felt the way you (and others) do here. Nobody got mad at their DM or punched them, or lost friendships over something as stupid as their make-believe people getting "killed". And I'd have to believe people have deeper rooted issues if they do/did. Did this also happen to people when they lost at Monopoly or tag on the playground?.Sure. maybe when you are 5. Not as young adults.

I ran it twice and played in it 3 or 4 times during the late 70s/early 1980s both in home games as well as at school D&D clubs with people who were not in my normal gaming group. Everyone I ever played with understood exactly what it was (a tournament to challenge players who were too big for their britches), looked at it as a "badge of honor" and we all laughed at our character's gruesome deaths. We never felt it was a horrible design or Gary was "mean"., or that it needed to be "fair and logical" (it's a game of make-believe).


If it was so horrible, it would not have survived in conversions, re-prints, or expanded versions through every single edition of the game, and spawned dozens of imitators over the last 40 years. Sales and interest continue to stand the test of time.