Saves and 4th Edition and Jim Darkmagic *SPOILERS*

[cavalier973]

So, I'm listening through the "Acquisitions, Inc." Podcasts (again), and have reached the "Ark of the Mad Mage" adventure, which uses the D&D 5th edition rules (or, at least, an early version of them)

*SPOILERS FOLLOW*

(As if you haven't already listened through the AQI Podcasts at least twice by now)

Jim kisses the pretty lady, who turns out to be a succubus. He gets one CON save (which he fails) and dies--as in, dead, dead. Valarius (sp?) gets one WIS save against being dominated, which he fails, and so he is charmed for a "day" (presumably a 24 hour period), with no recourse to end the domination, apparently, except perhaps getting help from Omin.

4th edition, I believe, would have given Jim the three death save countown, and Valarius would have been able to make a saving throw (straight d20 roll, 10 or higher saves) on each of his following turns to get out of being dominated.

Question: Is it more fun to get to roll once and then die/be dominated, or is it more fun to be able to keep rolling to get out of a bad situation? This is a request for an opinion, obviously, so no one can have a "right or wrong" answer on this, but if I were to DM a game, I would obviously want to go with the option that would be more entertaining.

Note: The "one save or die" could be implemented into a 4e game, and the "give a saving throw each turn" could be incorporated into a non-4e game, so it's not a question of which ruleset as a whole is "better", understand.

 

[cavalier973]

Okay, I'm looking at the Character sheet for D&D5e, and there is, in fact, a section for "Death Saves", so apparently Jim died because the damage dealt to him was so high.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Question: Is it more fun to get to roll once and then die/be dominated, or is it more fun to be able to keep rolling to get out of a bad situation? This is a request for an opinion

Well, in my opinion, it can be a lot of fun either way.

Long Duration SoD/SoS
While I think saves that take away a creature's will (death, domination, etc.) should be penalized in some way, it can still be fun to play it out. And, if you pull out a win or reversal (my players have used Miracle at high levels to reverse a death last round to a SoD... but that was a long time ago in 3.5), that can be very rewarding. (The combat where one PC died and had it reversed, which was against a pissed off Balor, was very memorable and fun for the players.)

On the other hand, it may not be so much fun to get owned. At one point in my 3.5 game, the PCs tried to assassinate an enchantress (extremely low magic world as of this point; magic was just blossoming again, and there was probably only about ten people with magic on the continent). They messed up the assassination, and she dominated three of them (including both opposing spellcasters), had one dominated spellcaster permanent blind a fourth (Blindness/Deafness), and then had one of the spellcasters Teleport them back to their home base. Once there, she Charmed the last PC (who had stayed behind). It was basically a TPK but worse, in a way. Everyone was alive, but dominated or charmed (or permanently blinded and left alone in the middle of the wilderness). They were eventually saved (they did know that the enchantress was being pursued by someone before they attacked her), but still, the next session wasn't a ton of fun for them.

Short Duration SoD/SoS
As for short duration effects, my 4e PCs recently got involved in a fight with a vampire that could dominate (save ends) against the PCs at will. While he never got more than two of them at once (the Knight and the Scout), he did keep the Knight basically incapacitated most of the fight (well, he WAS attacking his friends). That wasn't a ton of fun for the Knight, but it felt good when he finally broke free long enough to get a hit in. Overall, the players had fun with the fight, even if the Knight was mostly left out. (My turn? He's telling me to charge the Elementalist. Okay. I attack. Hit. 17 damage. I roll my save. Fail. Next.)

On the other hand, overcoming such effects have felt rewarding to them afterwards. They'd previously battled a bunch of cultists who were assisted by a gauth beholder. It used its sleep ray often (slowed SE, then unconscious SE), and it had the defender out of combat for about three rounds (one where he couldn't reach anyone, then two asleep; in the fourth round he only made it to anyone because he could charge after spending his move action to stand). Again, this wasn't great fun for him during the fight, but they still had fun when they finally got to beat on it (the Wizard PC using Hypnotism at the time to lower it into position). I still remember the Knight's player grin at that point.

Summary
Give me both, depending on how fun it'll be when everything's all rolled out. To do this, we'll need divination magic, but I'm willing to brainstorm, if anyone has any ideas...

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

From reading 5E over the past few days, it seems 4E-style saves - ie, round by round - still exist within a maximum duration.

While I do like JamesonCourage's answer, I find for my own group that 4E's system really is best, but that is, of course, a horribly subjective opinion based on my group's dynamics.

 

[The Human Target]

I like both really.

As someone who loves it, I do think 4e could use some longer duration stuff.

 

[steenan]

I generally dislike effects that instantly kill characters or make them unplayable for a long time. Honestly, I dislike any effects that kill characters without it explicitly being put at stake by the player (including the assumption that it is at stake in every combat).

On the other hand, I like mechanical long-term consequences, as long as they restrict the character without taking away player's control or penalizing all actions so much that they are ineffective.

Thus, I want domination-type effects to either be very temporary (a couple rounds) or to be a consequence of a lost high-stake conflict (instead of death). On the other hand, charm-type effects may and should last long enough to be usable in extended social interactions, not single encounters.

 

[cavalier973]

On the other hand, charm-type effects may and should last long enough to be usable in extended social interactions, not single encounters.

So, something like the character makes saves at a progressively lower penalty each turn? On the first turn after being charmed, Save -10. On the second turn, Save -6, then -2 on the third turn. The fourth turn, save +2, etc. Something like that?

 

[D'karr]

4e has several mechanisms within the base framework that can be used/modified to act like some of these desired effects. For example I've used the Disease Track to evoke the feel of short term and long term injuries. Something similar could be done to evoke the feel for a long term domination/charm, similar to Saruman's hold on King Theodred of Rohann. But I agree with [MENTION=23240]steenan[/MENTION] that these should be used as part of a "high stakes game" in which the player is interested in playing out the effect, not as simple save or suck effects.

I would have really liked to have seen WotC put out a book like Unearthed Arcana with variant things like this.

 

[steenan]

So, something like the character makes saves at a progressively lower penalty each turn? On the first turn after being charmed, Save -10. On the second turn, Save -6, then -2 on the third turn. The fourth turn, save +2, etc. Something like that?

No. What I mean is effects that remain active for hours, days or weeks, not for rounds. That's for "charm-type" - effects that push characters towards specific behavior (for example, by penalizing or outright disallowing specific actions), but leave control of the character in player's hands.

Effects that take away control should, on average, last for no more than half of the combat (so up to 2-3 rounds if combat takes 5-6).

 

[Balesir]

I would have really liked to have seen WotC put out a book like Unearthed Arcana with variant things like this.

I wholeheartedly agree with the potential in the Disease Track mechanic; something like an effect that dazes, first failed save means you get an "enchantment" that is like a disease but with different effects can really work well. All the same, I would have loved to see rules expansions for non-combat encounters (mechanical variations for the GM to play with, especially), as well as rules that deal with tense, "crossover" situations. Powers that turn a creature temporarily "Neutral" (not an enemy, not an ally) could open up scope for all sorts of shenanigans, just for example.