D&D 5E Saves At Higher Level?

[Zardnaar]

It has been pointed out that saves do not scale that well in 5E and yesterday I had a party with high ability scores and some great magic items encounter this.

1 Champion
1 Abjurer
1 Knight
6 Veterans

They were level 11 with ACs in the low 20's.

The abjurer used banishment twice on PCs with a DC 16 charisma save and both PCs failed and bless was also running. Charisma was not a total dump stat (being 10 or 11 IIRC) but they had around a 65 or 70% chance of flunking the save.

I also did not read the banishment spell before using it (I knew it was a charisma save and its effedct) but if I put it into a higher level slot I could have got multiple members of the party (2/4 would have been ideal IMHO). They managed to break concentration on the 1st one.

They won the fight (barely) and immediately long rested after the fight. Had I been a bit more proficient in my tactics I think I may have had a TPK on hand.

5E has level 13-18 spell casters in the CR 8 to 12 range. Spells and abilites with save or suck effects are way more danagerous than the generous amount of damage 5E critters do. 3rd level spells turn up on CR 2 and 3 critters along with 8d6 lightning bolts and fireballs on CR 3 and 4 critters. Lost Mines of Phandelver has a Flameskull in it and that was almost a TPK when we played the adventure.

basically from the DM PoV you can throw a horde of damage dealing critters at the PCs but 1-3 spell casters can really ruin their day especially with access to counter spells. As much as I like 5E I am not a fan of the encounter guidelines or the saving throws at higher levels.

 

[Shiroiken]

If you have a concern with "off" saves at higher levels, you could houserule that you add half your proficiency to non-proficient saves. This gives you a better chance, but being proficient is much better. The downside is that at levels 1-4, proficiency isn't that important, because it's only a 5% increased chance of success.

 

[cbwjm]

Sounds like it was a good fight, the PCs were challenged and still came out on top.

 

[happyhermit]

For all the talk of it, I really haven't seen an issue and I fail to see where the issue is in this particular encounter. By mid lvls there are a lot of ways for PC to boost saves ie; Indomitable, Paladin auras, etc. Unless the intent is for saves to become trivially easy, there are going to be failed ones, and the nature of randomness means there will be spates of bad luck, in the end though it seems to function well IME.

 

[Tormyr]

Yep, failed saves add drama. Sometimes there is a 0% chance of making a saving throw. At that point, it is up to the party to help each other out. In my campaign, the ancient dragons use a wing buffet right before their turn to knock the front line party members down and then attack the prone party members with advantage on its turn. The fighter cannot succeed as the highest she can roll is a 22 Dexterity saving throw. And a paralyzing breath weapon will lock up some party members for the full minute. At that point, the party's survival depends on their teamwork and planning.

The thing I find interesting about these arguments is the assertion that it is bad to have one or more saving throws that do not have a high rate of success. Sure it is bad for the character when the saving throw is failed, but that is where the tension and drama come from. Between that and the creatures that do high damage for their CR, there is plenty for an exciting story, and a TPK does not necessarily have to end in death all the time.

That mix of NPCs is rated deadly for up to 8 level 11 PCs. With banishment, the odds became even worse. Sounds like it turned out as advertised. I have been using the encounter building guidelines heavily in the 5e conversion of Age of Worms, and it has held up surprisingly well from level 1 to 20, but I have heard from several people that they did not work in their situation.

I didn't quite follow from your original post: Were you looking for suggestions, or was this more a rant of frustration?

 

[Xeviat]

I removed save proficiency. Characters already have high and low stats. I simply give proficiency bonus to all saves. To npcs and monsters too. Then the save DC base is increased to 10.


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[UngeheuerLich]

I removed save proficiency. Characters already have high and low stats. I simply give proficiency bonus to all saves. To npcs and monsters too. Then the save DC base is increased to 10.


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Yeah. Often sace proficiency alligns with main stat, so the difference is usually bigger than what I would like. I am not comfortable with removing it though.

 

[Ashkelon]

I removed save proficiency. Characters already have high and low stats. I simply give proficiency bonus to all saves. To npcs and monsters too. Then the save DC base is increased to 10.


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i have always felt 5e would be much better if proficiency bonus remained a flat +2, but characters received a +1 bonus to all Attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws at levels 5, 9, 13, and 17.

 

[Xeviat]

i have always felt 5e would be much better if proficiency bonus remained a flat +2, but characters received a +1 bonus to all Attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws at levels 5, 9, 13, and 17.

Like how skill training in 4E was a flat +5? I like it for the math, but you then have to do other things to make sure players feel like their characters are getting better at the things they're good at and not just growing to meet the expectations.


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[Horwath]

Like how skill training in 4E was a flat +5? I like it for the math, but you then have to do other things to make sure players feel like their characters are getting better at the things they're good at and not just growing to meet the expectations.


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4E is actually very good to play after you remove +1/2 per level to everything. Then bonuses come just from feat and ability boosts and magic items.