Saves while unconscious.

[heliopolix]

An interesting by product I've run across as part of some tactics I am perusing IMC.

Do you notice ability drain while unconscious/asleep. Poision requiring a For save or ability damage would wake you up from the pain, IMHO, but what about the touch of a shadow. It deals 1d6 temp str dam. What happens to the PC's who are camped asleep when the shadow attacks? Does the person he's draining from beneath the floor notice? Does the person on watch get a Spot check to see his freind getting pale? So far the only Saves ive found that you get to take uncoscious are For ones - i have found one Will spell - death knell, and i did find mention that characters automatically fail REf saves unconscious, but no mention of the other two. Help!

 

[Ottergame]

I would never not allow a character to miss on a fort or will saving throw.

As long as you live, you can make a fortitude saving throw.
As long as you move, you can make a reflex saving throw.
As long as you think, you can make a will saving throw.

The only time I would prevent a person from making a reflex saving throw is when they are utterly prevented from movie. being asleep does not prevent you from moving. Saving throws are just as much luck as they are of training and skill.

 

[Ottergame]

Also, being asleep is not equal to being unconscious using the terms in the game. Unconsciousness is a hostile state inflicted on you, even the spell Sleep doesn't render you unconscious. in fact, under the term "helpess" in the index, sleeping and unconscious are listed seperately.

However, you have a dex of 0 when you are a sleep, and therefor have a -5 to reflex saves.

 

[the Jester]

Do you notice ability drain while unconscious/asleep. Poision requiring a For save or ability damage would wake you up from the pain, IMHO, but what about the touch of a shadow. It deals 1d6 temp str dam. What happens to the PC's who are camped asleep when the shadow attacks?

In one of the H modules there's a room where a bunch of shadows hidden in darkness start draining the pcs' str and they don't even notice til they're about at half strength.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Out of my natural generosity I allow unconscious characters to automatically take half damage from Ref save spells, considering that they have already "hit the deck" as it were.

This is purely to give those in negatives a slightly higher chance of surviving, so I must be a big softie DM.

 

[jgsugden]

As you can tell from the various replies, the rules on this issue are lacking. Sleeping is a condition that the rules tend to ignore a little too much.

In other words, you're on your own.

My house rule on saves is that you do not get to make a reflex saving throw if you are unconcious or asleep, but you always get to make fort or will saving throws, regardless of mental/physical condition.

 

[Epametheus]

The lifedrain attacks are usually described as being comparable to having a piece of ice shoved through your heart, so I'd kinda expect the victim to notice.

Succubi should be an exception to this, but they're special.

 

[Xavim]

Considering that a sleeping character is a helpless defender I'd treat them as such, thus whatever the game's policy is with Helpless defenders and saves I'd use that. Of course attacking a sleeping individual immediately wakes them up.

 

[Hypersmurf]

My house rule on saves is that you do not get to make a reflex saving throw if you are unconcious or asleep, but you always get to make fort or will saving throws, regardless of mental/physical condition.

That's not a house rule.

Sleeping creatures are helpless.

Helpless creatures have an effective Dex of 0.

Any creature that can move has a Dex greater than zero.

Therefore a sleeping creature is not "any creature that can move", and is thus "a creature that cannot move".

The rules for Evasion state that you cannot use Evasion without room to move, "as with a Reflex Save for any creature".

If you can't move, then no amount of room is "room to move".

Thus, a sleeping creature cannot use Evasion... as with a Reflex Save for any creature.

It's right there in black and white

-Hyp.

 

[Geoff Watson]

That's not a house rule.

Thus, a sleeping creature cannot use Evasion... as with a Reflex Save for any creature.

Is so!

If those rules applied to Reflex saves, and not just Evasion, it should be mentioned under the rules for Reflex saves, or saving throws in general.

YMMV.

Geoff.