saving feats when you level???

[Nail]

As for the question of forum, I think this started because it appears to be a grey area - the rules don't specifically say......

Uhmm, no.

While I appreciate your post's sentiment, this is not a "grey area". You cannot save feats or skill points. That's it, clear as day.

 

[Altalazar]

It is not a gray area.

The rules are specific.

You gain x, y, and z abilities when you level up.

In order to gain a feat, you have to meet its prerequisites.

That's fine, you can play by your powergaming house rules. The rules in the book do not say you must immediately fill all those slots when you get them. And this goes with the tradition of earlier versions, where training was required for some things, and where getting new spells for a mage required going to a library, which might not happen until another level if you were out in the wilderness.

 

[MerakSpielman]

The rules in the book do not say you must immediately fill all those slots when you get them.

The rules don't say a lot of things. Are all of these absent things true? Are you assuming you can do anything that isn't specifically prohibited? Parden me if this logic seems a little odd.

 

[Altalazar]

The rules don't say a lot of things. Are all of these absent things true? Are you assuming you can do anything that isn't specifically prohibited? Parden me if this logic seems a little odd.

You may be right. Thus, the grey area. It wouldn't be grey if the rules specifically said you must take everything right away. Thus, the discussion on the pros and cons and considerations for such a rule.

Really the only way to get an "official" answer is Sage Advice. But then just sending all questions to sage advice and waiting for an answer seems to defeat the purpose of even having this particular forum.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Really the only way to get an "official" answer is Sage Advice. But then just sending all questions to sage advice and waiting for an answer seems to defeat the purpose of even having this particular forum.

Actually, the Designer opinions on this subject have been stated before.

Sean K Reynolds in 3E, at least, was firmly of the opinion that level advancement occurs in the order stated in pages 145-146 of the 3E PHB:

1. Choose Class
2. BAB
3. Base Save Bonuses
4. Skill Points.
5. Ability Score.
6. Hit Points.
7. Feats.
8. Spells.
9. Class Features.

Thus, until you've selected and assigned your feat, according to SKR, you don't get your class features.

I believe the Sage is less strict on the order these steps occur, but still maintains that they must all occur when you level.

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

That's fine, you can play by your powergaming house rules. The rules in the book do not say you must immediately fill all those slots when you get them. And this goes with the tradition of earlier versions, where training was required for some things, and where getting new spells for a mage required going to a library, which might not happen until another level if you were out in the wilderness.

These are not my powergaming house rules. Other posters here have stated that these are the rules. Guess I'll just have to quote them.

3.5 PHB page 87

"A player simply chooses for his or her character. Each character gets a feat upon creation. ... he or she gains another feat ..."

Note the words gets and gains.

"Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat."

Note the word select.

You GET feats at given levels. You can only SELECT feats if you meet the prerequisites. The rules are explicit.


And, Wizards (not mages, there are no mages in the 3E or 3.5 version core rules) DO get their spells immediately upon gaining a level.

3.5 PHB page 57

"At each new level, she gains two new spells ... At this point, she can add two new spells of (various combos listed) ..."

Note the phrases At each new level, gains two new spells and she can add.

This is clear. It would be a house rule that casters would have to wait to get their level gained spells while out in the wilderness.


Ditto for skills. You get the skills when you go up the level. You can only purchased trained skills if you go train. Although the book does not explicitly state it, you must train before you gain level (the book implies it). The reason is due to the fact that you purchase and gain all of your skills when you level up. Hence, you cannot train for a skill after the fact either (although I could see a DM allowing this as a house rule).

You may be right. Thus, the grey area. It wouldn't be grey if the rules specifically said you must take everything right away. Thus, the discussion on the pros and cons and considerations for such a rule.

There is no grey area.

If you are willing to quote some rules that even support that this is a grey area, people here are willing to listen.

 

[Nail]

These are not my powergaming house rules.

FWIW...Agreed. I'm a bit unclear on why following the rules would be called "power gaming".

Although the book does not explicitly state it, you must train before you gain level (the book implies it). .....

Or not, depending on how you'd like to do things. Training is not required...it's an optional rule.

IMC, I just let the players level up, gaining feats and skills and spells....whatever they should get.

If I were to require training, I would not allow them to "level up" until they'd recieved that training. Just as SKR suggests.

 

[MerakSpielman]

3.5 PHB page 87

"A player simply chooses for his or her character. Each character gets a feat upon creation. ... he or she gains another feat ..."

Note the words gets and gains.

"Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat."

Note the word select.

You GET feats at given levels. You can only SELECT feats if you meet the prerequisites. The rules are explicit.

Ok, but I would argue that the designers weren't expecting people to argue the sematics of the words "get" and "select." Frankly, I would assume that in the second quote above, that you are "selecting" the feat you decide to "get" when you are leveling up.

To me, the test of whether this is simply a power-gaming loophole is as follows: Ask SKR and the Sage. If they say you can't take feats before you qualify for them, are the people who like doing it going to keep arguing? If they keep arguing, then I would assume it's because they don't like their characters being rendered less powerful, and they are therefore just doing this for "power-gaming" reasons.

 

[Nail]

To me, the test of whether this is simply a power-gaming loophole is as follows: Ask SKR and the Sage.

Ouch.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Ok, but I would argue that the designers weren't expecting people to argue the sematics of the words "get" and "select." Frankly, I would assume that in the second quote above, that you are "selecting" the feat you decide to "get" when you are leveling up.

I don't think he's drawing a particular distinction there between "get" and "select" - he was simply drawing attention to the fact that the words used ("get" and "select") both imply that the feat is determined at the time and cannot be held in reserve.

The rules are very clear that you cannot take a feat you don't yet meet the prerequisites for.

-Hyp.