Saving RPGA Classics

Firebeetle said:
I considered that, but it is entirely possible to still use background in the adventure while using Iconics. In fact, it's possible to finally tell the story of the Iconics. An adventure could specify that it needs particular Iconics played, or be built to have special sections depending on which Iconics where used (I.E. Regdar, Mialee, and Lidda were all in the "Tomb of Terror" in some prior background adventure and thus all are haunted by the Grim Spectre who is the villian on this adventure.)
I'm not talking history; history is ephemeral, and mostly irrelevant. I'm talking personalities and interactions. Properly designed classic characters have secrets that intimately tie into other characters and into the module. In my opinion - at least for the classic events I think are worthwhile and like to play - the iconics wouldn't work, because you'd have to rewrite their personality with every module.

And really, if you don't have the tight character interactions, why not just play a Living event where everyone brings their own PCs? I don't see much functional difference.

I'm happy to post an example if you think it would be helpful.
 

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Piratecat said:
I'm not talking history; history is ephemeral, and mostly irrelevant. I'm talking personalities and interactions. Properly designed classic characters have secrets that intimately tie into other characters and into the module. In my opinion - at least for the classic events I think are worthwhile and like to play - the iconics wouldn't work, because you'd have to rewrite their personality with every module.

And really, if you don't have the tight character interactions, why not just play a Living event where everyone brings their own PCs? I don't see much functional difference.

I'm happy to post an example if you think it would be helpful.

Uncle, uncle! Dropping the Iconics idea, would you go for it?
 

I totally agree with Piratecat. I'm a long-time Classics player and DM, and I've written some Classic adventures. (I still do, for AnonyCon, but they're not RPGA-sanctioned anymore.) To me, the essential reason to have Classic adventures is to have character-driven games: games that are about PC1's relationship with PC2, and how that's affected by the big reveal in encounter 3 that changes how they view each other. Ideally, the characters have interesting interactions, the plot is based on things that are important to the characters, and the whole thing comes together like a really good stretch of a home campaign or like a good adventure movie or book (but with the flexibility of role-play.)

I agree that competitive play was an important part of the old Classics--not vital, but it added to them. But I don't think the style of competitive play (team tournaments, in effect) the OP is describing is the right one to focus on. In fact, that's precisely the sort of achievement based, "solve the game" style of play that Living games do better.

My recipe for bringing back Classics is different. I agree that quality of games is key, although that's always challenging; any plan based on "we'll do the same as what we used to do, but do it better!" is hard unless you have a clear idea of HOW to do it better. But I think the approach should be:

1) Commit to games that are character-driven. The last few Classics were the same as Living games, but with pre-supplied character sheets that were nothing more than the mechanical characters. What's the point in that? Everything that can do, Living can do better.

2) Make a commitment to serving the market consistently, but not necessarily with a huge total number of games. Something like 20 rounds/year is probably enough.

3) Use volunteers (or conceivably people paid at a low rate as freelancers) for the editing/approval process to reduce the need to worry about staff resources. I think the OP is totally right about this one. Classics can be popular again, but it will never compete with Living games in terms of size. So the model has to be one where we're happy with games being played a total of 50 or 100 tables, over their entire life; if the model is "can it match LG in size", it's going to fail.

4) Allow cons to do some of the legwork for developing the modules. Back in the day, people would often write modules because they were recruited to do so by con organizers. If the module was approved, the con would get to premiere it first. That was a powerful way to get more games written; I'm more likely to write a game to help out the con run by my friends than I am to help out the abstraction of the RPGA as a whole.
a) Maybe a regional model should be used here, but not like the regions in LG. What I'm thinking is having regional editors who can approve modules for use at local cons; the best of the regional modules then get approved for world-wide release. This would allow A) a higher number of modules available in any one region than if there were only the world-wide modules, B) everyone to play the best games, and C) competition to make your module as good as possible so it could percolate up. The key question is whether it would be worth the overhead; do you gain enough by having additional people involved, approving and editing at the regional level? Not sure, but I think so.

5) Bring back some forms of individually competitive play. At the most basic level, that means bringing back multi-round, individual advancement tournaments like the old Feature at GenCon. You could also have invitational events that require having won a previous event to play. Ideally, multi-round tournaments are written so each round stands on its own but combines to tell a bigger story, so the three round feature at GenCon can be run as three events of D&D classics at a smaller con that can't support an advancement-style tournament. (This is something of a challenge, because part of the appeal of multi-round tournaments is telling a bigger, longer story, which makes it harder to make each round stand alone. But it can be done-- I know because I've written games this way.)
a) The old Masters/Grandmasters/Paragon structure was also a nice carrot, but it may involve too much overhead. Also, it seriously favored heavy play versus performance, which meant that over time the play quality in the Masters level was declining. A model more like the bridge scoring system, which includes total points earned but also requires "special points" that can only be won by winning special tournaments to advance would probably be better. Again, this may be more effort than its worth. Frankly, good Classics even without any competitive aspect would get me actively attending cons, and multi-round tournaments at the big cons would rock.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the subject. I'm curious as to whether others think my approach would work, because I've been thinking about putting together an editorial team and offering it to Ian Richards.
 

Cerebral Paladin said:
Anyway, those are my thoughts on the subject. I'm curious as to whether others think my approach would work, because I've been thinking about putting together an editorial team and offering it to Ian Richards.

I think the biggest question to be answered would be, even with a good set-up like you're discussing, whether it'd generate enough play for RPGA to be interested in it.

These days, fundamentally, RPGA exists to encourage purchase of WotC-published books, by encouraging play of games that use them. This is especially true since 2002, when RPGA went away from the paid membership model (and, probably not coincidentally, the player ranking system went away at about that time, and Classics started their slow death spiral at about that time, too). Even with RPGA not having to dedicate much time / resources to the program that Cerebral Paladin outlines, I still wonder if they'd see it as worth their time.

With the demise of many of the older Living campaigns, as well as the Classics, I suspect that there are many old-time RPGA members (i.e., those who remember and enjoy the old Classics) that aren't very involved in the RPGA anymore. Maybe this would be a carrot to get them back, but maybe they're irretrievable; I don't know.

Blast, I sound so negative about this, don't I? :( Honestly, I'd like to see something like this succeed, because I see the RPGA getting narrower and narrower in focus, and excluding more and more players as a result.
 

kenobi65 said:
Blast, I sound so negative about this, don't I? :( Honestly, I'd like to see something like this succeed, because I see the RPGA getting narrower and narrower in focus, and excluding more and more players as a result.

From some general comments I've heard in various discussions I think it's the opposite. The RPGA is working to include more and more players.

The problem I've heard a lot from longtime members is that a lot of the players who are coming in are players they don't want to deal with. The impression I get from them is that they felt the RPGA used to be a bit more of an "elite" organization, and dislike the "rabble" they have to deal with now.

I think they are disenfranchising more and more player types than before. The smaller groups are getting left behind because they are trying to serve the largest groups. Combine that with their focus on serving more and more as a WotC marketing arm (without the support the marketing arm gets), and you get an organization that seems focused only on the needs of the many. They don't want to serve the wishes of the few, or at least feel they can't.
 

Glyfair said:
From some general comments I've heard in various discussions I think it's the opposite. The RPGA is working to include more and more players.

The problem I've heard a lot from longtime members is that a lot of the players who are coming in are players they don't want to deal with. The impression I get from them is that they felt the RPGA used to be a bit more of an "elite" organization, and dislike the "rabble" they have to deal with now.

I think they are disenfranchising more and more player types than before. The smaller groups are getting left behind because they are trying to serve the largest groups. Combine that with their focus on serving more and more as a WotC marketing arm (without the support the marketing arm gets), and you get an organization that seems focused only on the needs of the many. They don't want to serve the wishes of the few, or at least feel they can't.

Better stated than I put it, Glyfair. I think you've hit the nail on the head. Compare the RPGA of today (3 campaigns) with the RPGA of 5-6 years ago, when I started playing (7 to 9 campaigns, plus Classics), and I agree, the organization is getting more and more focused on the lowest common denominator.

That said, one difference between now and 5 years ago is that independent organizations have sprung up to offer campaigns that RPGA won't. Many of the non-WotC-run campaigns that RPGA has shed over the years (Living Arcanis, Living Spycraft, Virtual Seattle, Living Rokugan, Living Procampur / Legends of the Shining Jewel are the ones I know, for sure, have continued) have continued on, in some way, shape, or form, outside of the RPGA, while other Living-style campaigns (e.g., Dave Arneson's Blackmoor) have started up without ever being part of RPGA. Thus far, I'm not aware of any alliances between any of the companies and groups who are doing these, but, particularly now that Living Arcanis (likely far larger than any of the rest of those) is being run by Paradigm Concepts without any RPGA support at all, maybe that'll change.

Also, thus far, it doesn't seem like anyone's been doing anything similar with Classic-style modules. Maybe that's an opportunity area, as well.
 

kenobi65 said:
Better stated than I put it, Glyfair. I think you've hit the nail on the head. Compare the RPGA of today (3 campaigns) with the RPGA of 5-6 years ago, when I started playing (7 to 9 campaigns, plus Classics), and I agree, the organization is getting more and more focused on the lowest common denominator.
Please don't misread what I said. Yes, some feel that they are focused on the "lowest common denominator." I strongly disagree with such a term. Personally, I think that's just a term used to belittle a group of play styles the people complaining don't want to deal with (which just happen to be very common).

However, I've said for a while now that it's time for a new non-company specific RPGA style organization. While some dislike WotC's focus on their products, my problem is the lack of resources WotC gives the RPGA. Remember, this is an organization with only two full-time employees and has never been able to keep up with it's deadlines. In fact, whenever the summer convention season begins, RPGA support dies.

Yes, a lot companies or games have their own individual organized play structures. Some are successful, some aren't. However, I think an organization that serves many games and many companies can do much better by benefiting from synergy. A "game day" with just Mutants & Masterminds might not be very successful except in certain areas. One that has a M&M game, an Arcana Evolved game, a Runequest game, a GURPS game and a Pulp Hero game has a much better chance of not just getting players, but having players try something new.

Sure WotC won't ever support such an organization. However, I think most other companies would be willing to.
 
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Glyfair said:
Please don't misread what I said. Yes, some feel that they are focused on the "lowest common denominator." I strongly disagree with such a term. Personally, I think that's just a term used to belittle a group of play styles the people complaining don't want to deal with (which just happen to be very common).

Yeah, perhaps not a good choice of words on my part (and I did consider editing it after I wrote it). Not my intention at all to belittle play styles.

I *am* still quite active with the RPGA, at least with Living Greyhawk*. And, while I do have some old friends who complain about that play style, I do see a lot of good players, a lot of strong role-players, involved in the campaign.

But, as you note, when the organization decides it's going to focus its (admittedly thin) resources on a couple of campaigns, those are going to be the campaigns that have the broadest appeal, and things have to be done to make them accessible to as many as possible. And, that does, by definition, mean that RPGA isn't going to support the more niche-y campaigns and play styles.

Glyfair said:
However, I think an organization that serves many games and many companies can do much better by benefiting from synergy.

I agree entirely. The trick would seem to be pulling together the resources (financial and otherwise) to get it off the ground.

* - Living Death, too, but at this point, it's just playing the last few modules.
 

Cerebral Paladin said:
I totally agree with Piratecat. I'm a long-time Classics player and DM, and I've written some Classic adventures. (snip)

So, your answer is essentially do what they were doing, but make it work this time? I don't think that argument is going to work. Classics needs to be reinvented, that is what I'm suggesting.

I'm going to withdraw my earlier cry of "uncle!" and say (boldy) that ditching the character interaction angle is probably best. I think we should be thinking dungeon crawl here folks. If that's not attractive to you, then I recommend writing and running your own Classic style events without sanction, there's nothing stopping you. (Perhaps a "DM Mark" Classic kit can be produced which will allow all of Cerebral Paladin's suggestions to happen on a volunteer level.)

I think players choosing a team and running a mod will be a highlight event. Today, RPGA sanctions of published adventures work a similar way. They become "event" mods.

Endless debate about how Classics "just need X,Y,Z and some elbow grease" will not resurrect them. We need something bold and new. If successful, you can lobby for changes that suit you better.
 
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Firebeetle said:
I'm going to withdraw my earlier cry of "uncle!" and say (boldy) that ditching the character interaction angle is probably best. I think we should be thinking dungeon crawl here folks.

I don't think that'll attract the players who enjoyed the old-time Classic modules. As for those who would enjoy dungeon crawls: why would they want to play your dungeon-crawl style Classic, when they could spend their time playing LG or Xen'drik and be able to collect XP and GP for their character?
 

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