Saving throws and AC - how to allow players to continue rolling to save

[Daniel D. Fox]

Ok, here's how I believe saves and AC will work. Mind you, I am not playtesting 4th edition, but our group have been playing an ad hoc version of it with classes heavily modified from SW Saga.

Here are my formulas -

Fortitude = 10 + Level + Con Bonus + Class Bonus + Magical Bonus + Miscellaneous Bonus
Reflex = 10 + Level + Dex Bonus + Class Bonus + Magical Bonus + Miscellaneous Bonus
Will = 10 + Level + Wis Bonus + Class Bonus + Magical Bonus + Miscellaneous Bonus
Armor Class = Reflex + Armor + Shield


Based on the SW Saga system, the players never roll to defend. However, there's an easy way to continue allowing players to roll saves, or defend with their AC -

1) Don't include the base 10.

2) Allow players to roll to save or defend with their AC.

Meaning, a player needs to make a Reflex save versus a fireball. The player rolls a d20, and adds his bonuses (Level + Dex Bonus + Class Bonus + Magical Bonus + Miscellaneous Bonus).

This can also work for Armor Class. An enemy strikes at a player. The total sum of his rolls are 27. If iterative attacks are gone (outside of Rapid Strike/Rapid Shot and Multiattacks, Double/Triple Attack feats from SW Saga), this would be an easy mechanic to resolve. Once again, the player would roll a d20, and add the sum of Reflex + Armor + Shield to defend.

Seems like an easy fix to me for those who aren't fond of static defenses/saves/AC in 4th edition.

Thoughts?

 

[KarinsDad]

Seems like an easy fix to me for those who aren't fond of static defenses/saves/AC in 4th edition.

Thoughts?

This solution is a DMG option in 3E/3.5 for AC. I don't know of anyone who uses it (I have seen a few people post that they used it here on the boards, but it was definitely a minority).

I think static defenses are totally fine except in one case: Area Effect spells.

There, I think your solution here would be fine. The attacker attacks, everyone saves, only a single D20 roll more than 3.5 (i.e. the attack roll).

I'll have to think about this.

But for "save versus charm", the extra die roll every single time really isn't needed and I think people will quickly get to the point where their normal Defense was sufficient, but they rolled a 4 and blew the save as many times as they rolled the 16 and made the save.

 

[Pygon]

I was figuring if I wanted to give the player an identical chance to save as the bad guy's chance to get past their defense, and still preserve the "higher roll is better" mantra, that I would have to do the following:

Attacker's bonus is B.
PC's defense is D.

Attacker must roll d20 + B >= D to hit the PC.
or
PC must roll d20 + D >= (22 + B) to resist the attack.

I've experimented with this using some various numbers, and so far it works. It gives the PC the same chance to resist as the bad guy has to fail against the defense.

...

So, if the bad guy's attack bonus is 1 and the PC's defense is 10, you can either:

Roll d20 + 1 against 10 to hit the PC
or
The PC rolls d20 + 10 against 23 to avoid the attack.

Both result in a 40% chance to avoid the attack.

Looks like it's working. If the PC rolls a 1, you get to check for a crit

EDIT: There, I THINK that's right... Oh, whoops, you were talking about changing the static save thing as well.

 

[FireLance]

I for one would like to preserve the idea of saving throws as it makes the PC the active character even when on the defensive. What I'm basically coming round to is a "player always rolls the dice" situation - the player rolls to see if his character's attack succeeds, and he rolls to see if his character successfully defends himself against an attack.

 

[loseth]

I've been using a slightly more complicated version of this for years. All rollable stats (e.g. BAB & AC) are listed as stat/stat+10 or stat-10/stat, as appropriate. The first number is active and the second static. So, for example, a level PC 3 fighter might have a BAB of +5/15 (stat = active/stat+10 = static) and an AC of +8/18 (stat-10 = active/stat = static). Let's say he's fighting an orc with BAB +3/13 and AC +2/12. The fighter is a PC, so he'll normally make all the rolls (to save time and to give players, rather than the DM, more fun rolling to do). The fighter will roll d20+5 to hit the orcs's static AC of 18, and the fighter will roll d20+8 as his AC to defend against the orc's static attack of 12. If the orc were a big bad boss, then I'd have both the PC and his opponent make active rolls. The same process applies to saves.

This results in more fun for players and more time for the GM to think.

 

[Remathilis]

Thoughts?

Should work, making all combat actions opposed rolls in essence. It will be slower, but still not 3.5 combat slow, I'd wager.

My only concern: what do you do if your opponent rolls a "20" on his attack dice, and your opponent also rolls a "20". Does it hit? Does it Crit? Figure that out and you should be okay...

 

[Irda Ranger]

This can also work for Armor Class. An enemy strikes at a player. The total sum of his rolls are 27. If iterative attacks are gone (outside of Rapid Strike/Rapid Shot and Multiattacks, Double/Triple Attack feats from SW Saga), this would be an easy mechanic to resolve. Once again, the player would roll a d20, and add the sum of Reflex + Armor + Shield to defend.

Seems like an easy fix to me for those who aren't fond of static defenses/saves/AC in 4th edition.

Thoughts?

Note the bolded word (emphasis mine). Are you rolling twice (once for the NPC to attack, once for the PC to defend)? Why? Just have the PC roll to defend vs. the static attack value of the NPC. If the NPC would normally have a +8 attack, the PC will roll his AC Defense to beat DC 19.

 

[Aaron2]

I've been using a slightly more complicated version of this for years. All rollable stats (e.g. BAB & AC) are listed as stat/stat+10 or stat-10/stat, as appropriate. The first number is active and the second static. So, for example, a level PC 3 fighter might have a BAB of +5/15 (stat = active/stat+10 = static) and an AC of +8/18 (stat-10 = active/stat = static). Let's say he's fighting an orc with BAB +3/13 and AC +2/12.

If you are using 10+, your actually giving all PCs +2 on every roll. The Orc's BAB should be +3/15 if you want the chances to work out as if rolling RAW.

I've done the same thing and I'm glay they're getting rid of saving throws.


Aaron

 

[Warbringer]

I've been doing this for sometime.

For AoE the caster rolls 5 d20s, this gives a spread of success failure that works better than all or nothing

 

[Gort]

Note the bolded word (emphasis mine). Are you rolling twice (once for the NPC to attack, once for the PC to defend)? Why? Just have the PC roll to defend vs. the static attack value of the NPC. If the NPC would normally have a +8 attack, the PC will roll his AC Defense to beat DC 19.

Yeah, I'm tempted to use this house-rule as well, when 4e comes out. My players like to win or lose based on their own rolls, rather than me rolling some dice and then handing out damage.