Saving throws are a coin toss?

[Peter LaCara]

Yeah but it seems there are no lasting effects. Sleep is level 1, I wouldn't expect its effects to be particularly lasting. But high level curses and the like I do.

"For you infidelity I curse you with impotence......For the next 6 to 12 seconds offer is not valid in NJ, CA, or PN."

Kind of lame IMO.

That's why a curse like that is a ritual, not something you throw off in a fight.

 

[hong]

One thing that bugs me: 10+ is not a 50/50 chance, it's a 55% chance to break the effect. They could have said 11+ and actually had a 50/50 chance, but no. :\

Since the save occurs at the end of their turn, most effects now last 1.45 rounds. I guess that's alright in itself, but it does mean that most "ongoing damage" effects are a lot less potent than they first appeared.

Also, it's a bit simplistic for me. You have the same chance to shake off the effects of a demigod's curse as indigestion from a spoiled turnip? And equally, even if you're the world's greatest archmage, you can't keep a drunken goblin slowed/blinded/whatever for more than a couple rounds.

Presumably the world's greatest archmage would have a 20th level spell that does something like the 1st level one, but bigger.

A bit like how the save DC for 3E hold person (wizard) is 12 + stat mod, no matter how high level the wizard is. Not everything scales by level.

 

[Henry]

The net effect is losing an action or two, and I can't say I love that. Maybe there's a greater sleep spell or somesuch that actually sedates someone.

Soooo...what DO the klingons say about the guy running with a knife?

That he can slit four thousand throats in a single night, of course! (I know it's supposed to be a Hun or Mongol quote originally, but the Klingons co-opted it the same way they co-opted Shakespeare, the thieving bastards...)

I think the goal of 4e is to remove all "action-removing effects" a la hold person's nerfing in 3.5, and this is one example that I really don't know if you'll ever see altered even in "greater sleep" or whatever. They want to give the critter or PC at the very least one die roll to do in a round, to end the effect if nothing else. At the very least, a party that's ready for it can make great use of this, assuming there's still a delay type action in the round:

count 20: the rogue delays
count 18: the ranger delays
count 15: the wizard casts sleep; two enemies go down.
count 14: the rogue and ranger pop the heck out of two sleeping enemies, and maybe get lucky enough to kill them. If they're really lucky, they were within 5 feet and coup de grace them! Of course, this assumes coup de graces work similarly...

 

[frankthedm]

In defense of this, I do think DCs are kinda supposed to be set where level appropriate foes do have a 50%/50% shot.


Sadly saves are easier than a coin toss actually. :\

01, 02, 03, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09 Fail
10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 Succeed

 

[IceFractal]

Presumably the world's greatest archmage would have a 20th level spell that does something like the 1st level one, but bigger.

Ok, but that 20th level spell would still only be lasting 1-2 rounds. Sure, the archmage can kill the goblin, no problem. But what if he wants to control its mind, or petrify it for later questioning?

The problem is that because there's little difference between how a drunken goblin makes saving throws and how a 30th level demon-prince makes saving throws, you can't do anything to the goblin that you shouldn't be able to do to the demon-prince, except kill it.



And honestly, this is something that's important to have - the ability to completely own opponents much lower level than you, fight fair against equal level opponents, and be completely owned by much higher level opponents. Something like an "ownage threshold" - if you use a power on a monster X levels lower than you (10 maybe?), the "Ownage" ability takes effect. So:

Petrify
Attack: Int vs Fortitude
Hit: The target is slowed, save ends. If the target fails three saving throws, it is petrified until the end of the encounter.
Ownage: The target is petrified, immediately and permanently.

Mind Control
Attack: Int vs Will
Hit: The target cannot attack you and you can shift it three squares per turn, save ends.
Ownage: The target is completely under your control for 24 hours.


Sadly, this isn't something they seem to be taking into account.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Ok, but that 20th level spell would still only be lasting 1-2 rounds. Sure, the archmage can kill the goblin, no problem. But what if he wants to control its mind, or petrify it for later questioning?

The problem is that because there's little difference between how a drunken goblin makes saving throws and how a 30th level demon-prince makes saving throws, you can't do anything to the goblin that you shouldn't be able to do to the demon-prince, except kill it.



And honestly, this is something that's important to have - the ability to completely own opponents much lower level than you, fight fair against equal level opponents, and be completely owned by much higher level opponents. Something like an "ownage threshold" - if you use a power on a monster X levels lower than you (10 maybe?), the "Ownage" ability takes effect. So:

Petrify
Attack: Int vs Fortitude
Hit: The target is slowed, save ends. If the target fails three saving throws, it is petrified until the end of the encounter.
Ownage: The target is petrified, immediately and permanently.

Mind Control
Attack: Int vs Will
Hit: The target cannot attack you and you can shift it three squares per turn, save ends.
Ownage: The target is completely under your control for 24 hours.


Sadly, this isn't something they seem to be taking into account.

Maybe minions don't get to make saving throws.

 

[Incenjucar]

I expect mind-controlling classes will come out around the same time as summoning classes.

I don't think PCs will be given the ability to control significantly powerful beings of random nature on a permanent basis outside of controllable class limits, regardless.

Too abusable.

 

[Goobermunch]

Ok, but that 20th level spell would still only be lasting 1-2 rounds. Sure, the archmage can kill the goblin, no problem. But what if he wants to control its mind, or petrify it for later questioning?

The problem is that because there's little difference between how a drunken goblin makes saving throws and how a 30th level demon-prince makes saving throws, you can't do anything to the goblin that you shouldn't be able to do to the demon-prince, except kill it.



And honestly, this is something that's important to have - the ability to completely own opponents much lower level than you, fight fair against equal level opponents, and be completely owned by much higher level opponents. Something like an "ownage threshold" - if you use a power on a monster X levels lower than you (10 maybe?), the "Ownage" ability takes effect. So:

Petrify
Attack: Int vs Fortitude
Hit: The target is slowed, save ends. If the target fails three saving throws, it is petrified until the end of the encounter.
Ownage: The target is petrified, immediately and permanently.

Mind Control
Attack: Int vs Will
Hit: The target cannot attack you and you can shift it three squares per turn, save ends.
Ownage: The target is completely under your control for 24 hours.


Sadly, this isn't something they seem to be taking into account.

Given what we've seen on the sleep spell, I'd suspect you'll see higher level powers that are more like:

Mind Control
Attack: Int vs. Will
Hit: The target surrenders and takes no hostile action unless attacked.
Miss: The target cannot attack you and you can shift it three squares per turn, save ends.

You get some ownage and (to reflect your high level awesomeness), you get some benefits right out of the gate.

--G

 

[Mephistopheles]

At the very least, a party that's ready for it can make great use of this, assuming there's still a delay type action in the round:

count 20: the rogue delays
count 18: the ranger delays
count 15: the wizard casts sleep; two enemies go down.
count 14: the rogue and ranger pop the heck out of two sleeping enemies, and maybe get lucky enough to kill them. If they're really lucky, they were within 5 feet and coup de grace them! Of course, this assumes coup de graces work similarly...

If the way I've described it working above is correct it could be more deadly than that depending on the level of shared knowledge at the table.

* Strikers delay.
* Wizard casts sleep.
* Strikers move to be able to strike those who were hit by the spell as those are the ones who are at risk of falling unconscious.
* All in the area of the sleep are slowed, those who were hit potentially falling unconscious at the end of their turn. Those failing the first save fall unconscious and probably haven't been able to get away from the closing strikers effectively as they were slowed.
* Strikers then move in to have their way with the unconscious folk.

The unconsciousness will generally only be 1-2 rounds so the window to take advantage is small, but the round of slow before they actually drop gives the strikers time to attempt to take maximum advantage if it's common knowledge who was hit by the spell and who was missed.

 

[Simplicity]

The mechanic is ... interesting. You no longer have to keep track of durations, which is nice... But consider the following...

Effect lasts 1 round or more: 100% chance (it always lasts until the end of your turn)
Effect lasts 2 rounds or more: 45% chance (55% chance that you make save without bonuses)
Effect lasts 3 rounds or more: 20.25% chance (.45 * .45)
Effect lasts 4 rounds or more: ~9.1% chance ((.45)^3)
Effect lasts 5 rounds of more: ~4.1% chance ((.45)^4)

Maybe it's a nastier spell, and there's a +5 to the saving throw required... So you need 15 or higher each round.

Effect lasts 1 round or more: 100% chance (it always lasts until the end of your turn)
Effect lasts 2 rounds or more: 70% chance (30% chance that you make save without bonuses)
Effect lasts 3 rounds or more: 49% chance (.7 * .7)
Effect lasts 4 rounds or more: 34.3% chance ((.7)^3)
Effect lasts 5 rounds of more: 24% chance ((.7)^4)

Now consider what would happen if the effect was +11 to the saving throw for some reason... The effect becomes permanent. Unless there is special text in the saving throw rule for 20s. I've seen such text in the miniatures rules (20 ends all ongoing effects), but not in the prerelease handouts. I'm sure 20 is an auto-save, but still it would be a cool mechanic for things such as permanent charm persons...

Bah, I'm just deluding myself. I'd be willing to bet that 20 is an auto save.