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Saving throws are a coin toss?

No, that is the save mechanic. But, there are various bonuses. My eladrin ranger got a +5 racial modifier vs. Charm, for instance. I don't know if there are powers later on that up the DC as it were, but I would assume so.

Agreed. I'm assuming there will be special powers/feats/etc that make it more difficult to succeed on a "4E Saving Throw", just as it seems that there are powers that make it easier to succeed on such a Saving Throw.

So a 20th level ArchMage probably has special powers that would alter that Goblin's saving throw from "Roll a 10+ to end effect" to a more appropriate "Roll a 20 to end the effect".

If that's not the case, and it turns out that Saving Throws are always a flat 55% chance to succeed, regardless of any other factors, I'll have a good laugh at the sheer stupidity of the concept and then houserule it away.
 

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IceFractal said:
Ok, but that 20th level spell would still only be lasting 1-2 rounds.

How do you know? Maybe the 20th level spell has (save every hour) or something. Or (save on 15+) instead of (save on 10+). Or (permanent if 3 failed saves in a row). Or all of the above. Or something else.
 

Keep in mind, as per the wizard sheet, Sleep doesn't make people unconscious. It makes people slowed and THEN unconscious if they fail their first save against the slow. So enemies get one full turn worth of actions before they fall unconscious. And if they make their save the slow effect goes away without ever falling unconscious.
 

hong said:
Terminology confusion. The 3E "Reflex save" is the new 4E "attack vs Reflex defense", and the attacker rolls the die, not the defender. The 4E "save" appears unrelated to any 3E concept.

Looks like the 'saves' of our past editions have been transformed into a sort of 'AC' or defense. After looking at a lot of the spells for 4E, it really looks like the attacker rolls a 1d20 and adds whatever ability score modifier is listed in the attack portion and then compares it to the 'defense'. If it meets or exceeds, then the target is affected by that spell/item/ability.
 

Majoru Oakheart said:
Keep in mind, as per the wizard sheet, Sleep doesn't make people unconscious. It makes people slowed and THEN unconscious if they fail their first save against the slow. So enemies get one full turn worth of actions before they fall unconscious. And if they make their save the slow effect goes away without ever falling unconscious.

Yep.

And you can kill a +3 level dragon with it. ;)
 

Majoru Oakheart said:
Keep in mind, as per the wizard sheet, Sleep doesn't make people unconscious. It makes people slowed and THEN unconscious if they fail their first save against the slow. So enemies get one full turn worth of actions before they fall unconscious. And if they make their save the slow effect goes away without ever falling unconscious.

Precisely. Which does make the name of the spell a little counterintuitive as there is - as yet unknown modifiers notwithstanding - a less than 50% chance that anyone will actually fall asleep as a result of being in the area of effect of a sleep spell.

Taking Kobold Skirmishers, for example, the Wizard needs an 8 to hit (+5 vs Will 13) which is a 65% chance to hit, and the kobolds then have a 45% chance of falling asleep at the end of their first turn after being hit by the spell. That comes out to slightly less than 30% for any particular kobold in the area to fall asleep.
 
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Mephistopheles said:
Precisely. Which does make the name of the spell a little counterintuitive as there is - as yet unknown modifiers notwithstanding - a less than 50% chance that anyone will actually fall asleep as a result of being in the area of effect of a sleep spell.

Taking Kobold Skirmishers, for example, the Wizard needs an 8 to hit (+5 vs Will 13) which is a 65% chance to hit, and the kobolds then have a 45% chance of falling asleep at the end of their first turn after being hit by the spell. That comes out to slightly less than 30% for any particular kobold in the area to fall asleep.
It's also a 'burst 2'. That means a 5x5 box, or a total of 25 squares covered. Hopefully, he can get a lot of kobolds with it.
 

Mephistopheles said:
Precisely. Which does make the name of the spell a little counterintuitive as there is - as yet unknown modifiers notwithstanding - a less than 50% chance that anyone will actually fall asleep as a result of being in the area of effect of a sleep spell.

Taking Kobold Skirmishers, for example, the Wizard needs an 8 to hit (+5 vs Will 13) which is a 65% chance to hit, and the kobolds then have a 45% chance of falling asleep at the end of their first turn after being hit by the spell. That comes out to slightly less than 30% for any particular kobold in the area to fall asleep.

To be fair, though, if the kobold skirmisher were a 3.5E monster with a +3 Will save and we assume a wizard with a 20 Int, there's only a 65% chance of the kobold falling asleep. And if we scale things up, 4E becomes the decisive winner: an ogre with a 13 Will Defense still has about a 30% chance of falling asleep in 4E, and a 0% chance in 3.5.
 

Kordeth said:
To be fair, though, if the kobold skirmisher were a 3.5E monster with a +3 Will save and we assume a wizard with a 20 Int, there's only a 65% chance of the kobold falling asleep. And if we scale things up, 4E becomes the decisive winner: an ogre with a 13 Will Defense still has about a 30% chance of falling asleep in 4E, and a 0% chance in 3.5.

From memory a regular ogre in 3.5E is 4HD so a single ogre would still have a good chance of falling asleep unless there were also lower HD creatures in the AoE.

In any case trying to set up an example where the spell in the previous edition is intended to have a 0% chance of affecting a target hardly seems relevant to a discussion of the 4E version of the spell.
 

This is one of the design decisions for 4e I find problematic. At some point, when you have removed enough simulation elements, the coin toss is almost inevitible. At some point, any game sufficiently divested of quirkiness becomes d02.

There are games out there... Marvel Super-Heroes, Savage Worlds, Fudge, and so forth... that simply dispense with complicated rules. Marvel isn't a classic game because it plays well (it really doesn't), but because it's simple and provides a resolution for each action. The game design doesn't spend a lot of time wondering who "should" win. Someone wins an action, the game moves forward.
 

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