D&D 5E Saving Throws not mandated by class

[Li Shenron]

Just came to my mind...

In 5e they purposefully disassociated skills from classes to allow more freedom in character creation. You still gain one (or three, for Rogues and Bards) skill proficiency from class, but you gain three skill proficiencies plus some tool proficiencies (which ate some older skills) from your background. This design choice was done because in previous editions many people thought that the idea of "class skills" was too restrictive, especially for someone who wanted to get creative in character design.

Furthermore, in previous L&L articles it was said that they really want to allow each PC to freely pick her skill proficiencies, so that backgrounds also are really just suggestions and not restrictions. The playtest rules mention this in the form of "discuss with your DM", but Mearls also wrote "we very intentionally allow any character to take any skill and tool proficiencies" about this topic in one of the L&L articles, which is very clear to me.

Currently, it's also said that the designers are trying to come up with a fix to multiclassing rules because they don't want a PC to get Saving Throws proficiencies from multiple classes, resulting in 4 (from 2 classes) or even 6 (from 3 classes) good ST.

So I just though, what if instead of gaining 2 ST proficiencies fixed by class, you just freely pick 2 ST proficiencies?

Note that currently all classes get 2 ST fixed proficiencies, except Druid and Rogue which get 1 (whether this is intentional or an overlook I don't know, although I see no reason why this should be the former). Every Fighter is good at Str and Con ST, every Wizard is good at Int and Wis ST, and so on... While this is not a major problem, it also implies that every Fighter is "bad" (read: "not the best") at Dex/Int/Wis/Cha ST, every Wizard is "bad" at Str/Dex/Con/Cha ST, and so on... This quite a lot reminds me of 3e skills restrictions, where a Fighter can never be very good at sneaking or a Wizard can never be good at athletics because these are not class skills.

Allowing free choice of 2 Saving Throws seems very much in sync with the idea of allowing free choice of skills proficiency, and it completely removes the multiclassing problem.

What do you think?

 

[GX.Sigma]

What if everyone automatically got proficiency bonus to all saving throws?

 

[variant]

I hope they really broaden the usefulness of Strength, Intelligence, and Charisma saving throws.

 

[Li Shenron]

What if everyone automatically got proficiency bonus to all saving throws?

I hope they really broaden the usefulness of Strength, Intelligence, and Charisma saving throws.

These are different issues: www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?333927-We-need-more-Int-Str-Cha-saving-throws

 

[tuxgeo]

I think the simplest solution is to have a category of benefits that a character gets from his or her class that is only given when that is the character's first class (i.e. taken at level 1), and to include Saving Throw proficiencies in that category.

 

[Sadrik]

Just remove the bonus, which really equates to a penalty in the other 4. Fix the math on it, to go to whatever DC the designers feel is the appropriate numbers of pass fail.

If two equal ability scores what should the pass fail number be for the saves? 50% failure? 70% failure? I would liken this to an attack roll in a way so should be more possible to succeed under most circumstances.

8+stat+proficiency bonus (implement)

So lets see level 1 w/implement and 16s
DC 13 vs. +3 so 10+ or 55% chance to make the save

Then you add in stat boosts and the +0 to+4 scaling bonus from leveling.

So maxed out
DC 19 vs. +3 so 16+ or 25% chance to make the save

Adding in the proficiency to certain saves further complicates these numbers. I would get rid of them. Scaling to cancel scaling is not a reason to have it I think. I would rather have that slack being met with buffs from spells and magic items.

Also from a prospective of having 6 saves and only buffing 2. I would rather see across the board scaling bonus to represent leveling up. Let the differences in the stats reflect what characters are good at not an additional bonus on to of 2 of them.

 

[Li Shenron]

I think the simplest solution is to have a category of benefits that a character gets from his or her class that is only given when that is the character's first class (i.e. taken at level 1), and to include Saving Throw proficiencies in that category.

That's probably what they are going to do. But there's only saving throws and bonus skills in that category. It also creates the weird effect that a Fighter 1 / Wizard 1 is different depending on the order.

For the bonus skills, I don't know how to do it. The bonus skill could be easily also made generic i.e. moved out of the class, the problem is with Rogue and Bard who get 2 extra proficiencies.

For the saving throws, the multiclassing problem is solved when they are not fixed-by-class, because then the choice is for the 1st character level rather than class level, just like you don't get a second background or race when multiclassing.

That would be however more like a nice side benefit. The main benefit IMO is that you are free to choose, so you can be a Fighter with good Dex and Int saves, or a Wizard with good Con and Cha saves. This would be pretty much consistent with what they have done with skills, i.e. there is no more restriction by class on which ones you can be good at.

 

[biotech66]

I think you need to tie saving throws to classes. Otherwise you lose class "feel" for DnD. The game would feel a bit like pick you own class RPG like Shadowrun. It would be fun, but not "feel" as much like DnD.

 

[Kobold Stew]

This is a good idea, I feel -- giving choice allows design flexibility, and making it a feature of a starting character rather than of class or background makes sense. I would like to see some kind of constraint imposed, though, so that it actually is a choice between equally reasonable options, and not (as you noted in January) something where selecting Dex/Wis is disproportionately advantageous.

One constraint would be to offer a choice of pairs:
(a) Con and Str
(b) Cha and Wis
(c) Dex and Int
(for example; assuming the current imbalance is preserved in the final game, and I see no indications that it might change).

Another possible constraint (which I might actually prefer) is that you can choose two stats, but they cannot be your numerically highest ability (and if you start with two abilities tied at the top, you can choose neither of them). While mechanically I find this clean, the in-game narrative rationale will be a challenge for some.

 

[Li Shenron]

I think you need to tie saving throws to classes. Otherwise you lose class "feel" for DnD.

But this is exactly what they did with skills...

I would like to see some kind of constraint imposed, though, so that it actually is a choice between equally reasonable options, and not (as you noted in January) something where selecting Dex/Wis is disproportionately advantageous.

Indeed, that was a problem I repeatedly wrote in my playtest feedback, but apparently most playtesters must have no problem with Dex and Wis being much more common ST than others, because nothing was done to change the disproportion.