Scalable "Sleep" spells

[Forrester]

In a past thread, a few people said that they were interested in Sleep spells that got more powerful as the casters did.

My main goal of these Sleep spells is affecting lots of little guys, not one or two big high-HD guys. (I imagine these spells being cast by drow to help them catch slaves.)

Taking notes from similarly debilitating spells (Cloudkill, Hypnotic Pattern, Circle of Death), here's my first shot. Tell me what you think:


Improved Sleep (3rd level)

As the 1st level arcane spell Sleep, with the following exceptions:
1) The spell affects d6HDlevel of creatures, max of 10d6HD.
2) The spell affects creatures of up to 6HD.
3) Victims are put into a heavier sleep than that caused by the 1st level spell; the first time the creature is about to be woken by slapping, shaking, or wounding, it must make another saving throw versus the spell (at +1 for each hp of damage done, if wounding was involved); if the save is unsuccessful, the victim does not wake up. The second time, however, the waking attempt is automatically successful.

This last effect requires that a “power component” be used -- a scattering of special rose petals, taken from a flower the elves call Corellon’s Dreamcatcher. If mundane material components are used (rose petals or a pinch of sand), the sleep is no heavier than that caused by the 1st level spell. The price of this component, per use, is approximately 100gp.


Super Improved Sleep (5rd level)

As the 1st level arcane spell Sleep, with the following exceptions:
1) The spell affects a 30' radius burst
2) The spell affects d6HDlevel of creatures, max of 15d6HD.
3) The spell affects creatures of up to:
10HD (spellcaster levels 9-12)
12HD (spellcaster levels 13-16)
14HD (spellcaster levels 17-20)
4) Weaker creatures are automatically put into a deep sleep from which they cannot be awoken until the spell duration ends. These creatures also do not count towards the HD limit of the spell.
For spellcasters levels 9-12, creatures up to 2HD are put to deep sleep.
For spellcasters levels 13-16, creatures up to 4HD are put to deep sleep.
For spellcasters levels 17-20, creatures up to 6HD are put to deep sleep.

Comments? What might you change?

 

[Magus_Jerel]

This spell was DELIBERATELY not designed to scale with level from its inception.

For all essential purposes, what you are discussing is a mass death spell. Knocking out an opponent - and all his allies - means the encounter is over then and there.

The spell duration of 1 minute was also set there for a particular reason. If someone managed to make their save - it was not all that hard to "survive" a part of that minute - to wake up your allies - or if need be - hold them off for those 10 rounds, and let them wake normally.

Sometimes - disabling is just as good, if not worse than, dead. I wouldn't let you run this series of spells - it just doesn't make sense.

 

[Forrester]

This spell was DELIBERATELY not designed to scale with level from its inception.

For all essential purposes, what you are discussing is a mass death spell. Knocking out an opponent - and all his allies - means the encounter is over then and there.

The spell duration of 1 minute was also set there for a particular reason. If someone managed to make their save - it was not all that hard to "survive" a part of that minute - to wake up your allies - or if need be - hold them off for those 10 rounds, and let them wake normally.

Sometimes - disabling is just as good, if not worse than, dead. I wouldn't let you run this series of spells - it just doesn't make sense.

And "Fireball" isn't a Mass Death spell?

First of all, I'm a DM, not a player. So I don't have to worry about you letting me "run" this series of spells, for multiple reasons. I run a moderate-power campaign where the Bad Guys are just as "cheaty" as the good ones, so I *am* concerned about balance.

Second of all, what "just doesn't make sense"? The 3rd level version seems to me to me to have no more power than a Fireball -- especially given the HD cap is at 6HD. Any 5HD creature that fails its save versus a 10HD Fireball (let's say) is in big trouble anyway.

The 5th level one's power level was based off of Cloudkill (3HD and under are dead, no save) and Circle of Death. Sleep is a bit less serious than killing one's opponent . . . but admittedly, a good Sleep spell, that disables *everyone*, might just as well be a Death spell.

Do you think either of the ones I've posted are overpowered? How might you change them, then?

But obviously, if you think that a Sleep spell that is scalable in any way defies the laws of Time, Space, and 3E, then never mind.

 

[Magus_Jerel]

Regardless of the level of magic - to say that "your dead" no save... sounds cheesy to Me.

Both of these things effect some preety serious numbers of HD here - and I don't think even a fifth level fireball could drop 10 3-6 hd creatures outright upon failed saves. Granted - fireball could hurt them, but when it comes to sleep - out cold is out cold... CDG bait.

The fifth level version is even worse in this respect.

With the SOLE execption of Power word Kill - there isn't a way to "insta kill" a creature of more than 5hd with no save. A few - Dictum in particular - could paralyze an entire legion of opponents - and you just walk in and chop em up.

I find such spells - ones that say "your dead - no save" unbalancing as a concept. Sure... "you take a boatload of damage" is the same as "you are dead" - but any given character could deliver that said boatload - not just the spellcasters.

It is my biased opinion that these spells should NOT be used or allowed in the D and D game - but... with that said, a few pointers.

1, keep the HD count down at 4 to 8 hd

2. Expand the radius, and even the number of HD knocked out - you might even consider going to a HP count, instead of HD.

3. make sure to note that if the caster is possibly KO'd by his own spell - that He has to make a will save as well.

4. Don't let these spells become the "universal solution" to encounters.

 

[green slime]

Well looking at the Sleep spell, I'd make the following changes:

Improved Sleep
Enchantment(Compulsion)/[Mind-Affecting/]
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Medium
Area: several living creatures in 15-ft radius burst.
Duration: 1 minute/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

d4 * Caster Level HD of creatures are put to sleep (Max 10d4 HD of creatures), starting with the lowest HD. Creatures with more than 6HD are immune.

No Further effects.

Greater Sleep
Enchantment (Compulsion)/[Mind-Affecting/]
Level: Brd 5, Sor/Wiz 5
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Long
Area: several living creatures in 30-ft radius burst.
Duration: 1 minute/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes

d4 * Caster Level HD of creatures are put to sleep (Max 15d4 HD of creatures), starting with the lowest HD. Creatures with 2HD or less are granted no saving throw (i.e they automatically fail their saving throw. SR still applies) Creatures with more than 8HD are immune.

True Sleep
Enchantment (Compulsion)/[Mind-Affecting/]
Level: Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 7
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Long
Area: several living creatures in 60-ft radius burst.
Duration: 1 minute/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes

d4 * Caster Level HD of creatures are put to sleep (Max 20d4 HD of creatures), starting with the lowest HD. Creatures with 4HD or less are granted no saving throw (i.e they automatically fail their saving throw. SR still applies) Creatures with more than 10HD are immune.

Add power effect as desired...

Just my tupenny's worth of thoughts

 

[Al]

They are now too weak, with the exception of Improved Sleep.

Greater Sleep is clearly weaker than Cloudkill.
Compare:
Greater Sleep has no save to those 2HD or less.
Cloudkill no save to those 3HD or less.

Greater Sleep allows a save to those of up to 8HD
Cloudkill allows a save to those of up to 6HD

Greater Sleep has no effect of those of more than 8HD.
Cloudkill does d10 damage per round on those of more than 6HD.

Oh yes, and Cloudkill acts like fog cloud.

But wait: doesn't Cloudkill KILL its victims, whilst Sleep just send them to sleep. The power levels don't really compare anymore, and that's without Cloudkill/Forcecage or Cloudkill/Small Room combos. Greater Sleep is at best 4th level in power.

And what of True Sleep?
Even more weak relative to level.

It is almost certainly weaker than Mass Suggestion (hey, you can suggest that they go to sleep), as it is less flexible. It can initially only affect 13d4 HD of creatures, i.e. 32 HD therefore around three 10HD creatures. Except of course, you are 13th level at least. Therefore, MOST creatures you are fighting have MORE than 10HD. Hence, this spell is nearly useless. Sleep's cap works because most enemies of characters throwing 1st level spells have 4HD or fewer. Enemies of those throwing 7th level spells tend to have more than 10HD. True Sleep is probably at best 6th level, and perhaps even as low as 5th.

 

[Forrester]

Given those comments, Al, what do you think of the versions of the spell that I originally posted here? You commented on suggested new versions, not the original.

 

[Al]

The originals seem about right.
In the future you should listen to your own instincts rather than rogue posters (no offence, M_J!)

 

[Forrester]

The originals seem about right.
In the future you should listen to your own instincts rather than rogue posters (no offence, M_J!)

No such thing as a "rogue poster" on this thread -- I asked for critiques, and I'm glad I got them.

Unlike M_J, though, I don't see why a scalable Sleep spell should be verboten.

However, I think that the 5th level version (Super Improved Sleep) might be a little overpowered at d6 per level, and might be better as d4 per level -- especially given the "Auto-sleep" effect. Either that, or lower the HD cap to 8HD, 10HD, and 12HD (instead of 10, 12, and 14).

But I think Green Slime's version (which both lowers the cap and makes it d4/level) is probably a bit too weak.

 

[mmadsen]

I've always had a love-hate relationship with the Sleep spell. It's a genre staple, so they wanted it to be widely available and widely used; hence, it's first level.

On the other hand, the designers saw that it was quite powerful, so they gave it arbitrary limits (5-HD cap).

I'd much rather limit Sleep in ways that are consistent with its nature and don't rely on arbitrary game mechanics. The Will Save already makes the spell less effective against high-level characters -- that's what saves do -- and there are so many other ways to limit the spell:

• Give Save bonuses for being aware of an enemy or danger. The spell doesn't work well except by surprise.
• Give another Save to wake up if there's noise from combat, yelling, etc. If any one guy is left awake, he might rouse his allies before they're killed.