green slime said:
Well, I'll admit I just threw those out of the top of my hat while sitting at work and looking at sleep.
But I DO have other comments regarding Al's comparisons...
While sleeping you are Helpless, which means you are in for summary execution, if you are in the middle of a combat. I'd rather my character took 10 hp damage per round than have a 9th level fighter wander up and CDG him. I'm against save or die spells, and I don't see many other spells of that level that cause save or die effects to on average 3-4 characters of your level.
The idea isn't to insta-kill/take care of the majority of opponents one has, but as a spell to HUMANELY take care of large hordes of low level adversaries, that, for one reason or another, shouldn't be mercilessly slaughtered.
Suggestion has the qualifier (and therefore even Mass Suggestion) that:
"The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable."
Going to sleep while engaged in combat or faced with a potentially hostile situation seems rather UNreasonable to me.
SO onward to potential fixes:
Raise the Greater Sleep's No-save to 4HD or less.
Perhaps adding a slow effect to those of higher level in the area of effect?
Firstly, just a mathematical error: d4/level implies average of 2-3 characters of your level, not 3-4.
Your substantive point is that Sleep is tantamount to death. Whilst it is certainly dangerous and potentially lethal, it is fairly straightforward for an ally of the sleeper to simply wake him. Furthermore, it ought be borne in mind that coup de grace is a full-round action drawing attacks of opportunity: so not an instant despatch.
With regard to save or die effects, think Chained (metamagic) Hold Person (5th level for clerics). It can affect up to 1 opponent/level (ergo 9 at minimum level) and effectively DOES mean death. Paralysis for nine rounds vis-a-vis sleeping for probably less than one (assuming that your allies wake you) more than makes up for the lower DCs. Empowered Fireball can also spell death for many characters of equal level: if you're a 9d4 HD mage, you don't want a 9d6x1.5 Empowered Fireball aimed at you. Finally, save or dies begin from fourth level: both Phantasmal Killer and (effectively) Polymorph Other. By 5th level, they come hard and fast: Slay Living and Flesh to Stone (effectively).
Granted, the idea is to knock out many lower level foes. This I can accept.
With reference to Suggestion, fair enough. But the 5th level clerical spell Greater Command CAN force people to go to sleep: lasting 1 round/level and affecting 1 enemy/level. Surely your proposed spell pales in comparison? And of course it can affect enemies of no matter what HD: assuming enemies of equal HD, this has a useful lifespan of two levels. True Sleep has no useful lifespan.
The 'fix' is hardly a fix. 4HD creatures are toast against 9th level casters anyway, and they are hardly likely to fighting such creatures at their level.
It's a tricky one though. It seems too weak at 5th, but a bit strong at 4th. Perhaps upping the number of creatures affected and the max HD affected could be a better fix (d6/level, up to 12HD?)
